$3 rebuy 2nd hr- calling raise from bb with 84s

S

Shandy

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Just looking through some old hand historys and came across this hand- most of the table seemed to be still playing very lag at this point from rest of HH, just wondering what you would do at this point, i think now i would play it differently to how i did then.
*********** # 190 **************
pokerstars Game #10240627008: Tournament #51171226, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit
- Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/06/02 - 22:05:03 (ET)
Table '51171226 30' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: onlgamer987 (3990 in chips)
Seat 2: troll82 (18327 in chips)
Seat 3: PETHI (6965 in chips)
Seat 4: 222shay222 (21805 in chips)
Seat 5: Heath99 (23590 in chips)
Seat 6: arnauch (7258 in chips)
Seat 7: jaykash (39255 in chips)
Seat 8: blushboy (45559 in chips)
Seat 9: bigfish1974 (27485 in chips)
onlgamer987: posts the ante 25
troll82: posts the ante 25
PETHI: posts the ante 25
222shay222: posts the ante 25
Heath99: posts the ante 25
arnauch: posts the ante 25
jaykash: posts the ante 25
blushboy: posts the ante 25
bigfish1974: posts the ante 25
PETHI: posts small blind 200
222shay222: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 222shay222 [8c 4c]
Heath99: calls 400
arnauch: folds
jaykash: folds
blushboy: calls 400
bigfish1974: raises 400 to 800
onlgamer987: folds
troll82: folds
PETHI: folds
222shay222: calls 400
Heath99: calls 400
blushboy: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [6c 8d 5c]
222shay222: checks
Heath99: checks
blushboy: checks
bigfish1974: bets 3200
222shay222: ??????????
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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depends on if you care to flip or not. can raise since your most likely ahead of his holdings atm, shove, or smooth call if you want to keep your hand disguised. smooth calling is my least favorite though. you -may- get someone coming along with you which increases your equity in the pot, but it also leaves you open to squeezing.. not that we particularly mind it in this situation.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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i actually like a shove. gives most fold equity and may deter another flush draw from coming along.. i think PFR has an overpair and you're getting in with him as a slight favorite either way, most of the time. but what you reaaally don't want to happen is get all-in with a higher club draw and the overpair. just shoving gives you a better chance of folding out a club draw before the PFR likely calls you

and p.s. there are people who will probably say shoving here makes it so obvious we have a draw, but i play 56, 85, 86 the same way.. i mean, we were BB, we can have any of that junk
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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I might just call were it not for the other 2 players. In a family pot this is a coin flip. But I think you can do much better. If you isolate the raiser you could very well be as much as an 80% favorite to take the pot down by the river. If you include fold equity into the equation, a push could increase your win rate way above that. Since there's already 6400tc in the pot I wouldn't mind taking it down now. I mean then.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

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You have from 14 to 17 outs here so folding is out of the question. He could have an overpair (mini-bet reeks of AA) or 2 over cards making a continuation bet.

It's doubtful anyone else hit the flop so the others will probably fold anyway unless one has a draw also. If you call and the flush card hits you will probably not make any more money in the hand so I think we have to raise here. I wouldn't shove though, that's way too much of an overbet and I think we want to bet for value on our top pair and huge draw. I'd raise about 7AK more to around 10K total. You might get a reraise shove which is fine since we'll call as a likely favorite.

If you shove you will get a lessor hand to fold but a reraise might get villan to shove as a bluff with AK or something. I see way too many players fall in love with AK even when they miss the flop and willingly put in all their chips with it.

Almost no matter what villan has you would be the favorite even if you are behind. If he has an over pair (AA) then you have 17 outs (9 clubs, 3 7s, 2 8s and 3 4s) If he has a big club draw, say AK clubs, then he has 13 outs (7 clubs, remember you have 2 of them, 3 Ks and 3 As). Even if he has a set, 55 or 66, you still have 12 outs.

I really expect him to have AA here. If so the most likely case will be you reraise and he shoves and you call with a huge draw.
 
dj11

dj11

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Why would we call the pf raise? OK, not the point I want to make.

We all play these off premium hands because we know that occasionally they hit, and though 84 suited is a bit beyond me, I won't argue about it too much. Especially since we did hit the flop, almost huge. All the potential we came into this pot for are now amplified.

I would not worry at all on this flop about a big pair, I would worry about the opponent, thinking about like we are, that played 79 suited or naked, and hit huge. Even scarier, and worthy of a white coat would be the guy playing 73 suited (gawd, we pray he has that much sense).

With this flop one has to assume the big bet is an overpair or the 73, as the 79 might decide to play it for value, where as the 73 was so stupid to begin with he for sure would shove. The overpair might shove cause he don't wanna let anyone see another card.

You may already be beat no matter what shows up short of runner runner 44 or 84. You do have the flush draw giving you that out, but even then it would be a low grade flush, so you might consider that weak, as with the straight. Yes you have all those outs, but several are uncountable, a single 4 for instance might not count, as this surely looks like a straight board to me.
 
J

joeeagles

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PF odds were inviting so the call is understandable considering you already know the 1st 2 limpers won't fold for an extra 400, but playing hands like 84s can put you in these risky situations, and this really is one of the best flops you could hope for, with top pair (even if a weak one) and a straight flush draw.

TBH this is so much a non "standard" scenario that, for me at least, its hard to decide which way is best. One way or another you're likely to have many outs to save you here if you're behind, but which is the best strategy is very problematic.

The shove seems to be a good one because we have FE, but I'm quite sure an overpair would call it, so are we sure we want to put 50+ BB's on a draw, even if we might have a number of outs that actually has us favored?

Calling is weak, its 15% of our stack and we're OOP on the turn, plus as was already said if our flush hits we likely won't get paid off so it kind of voids any IO we could have plus it might leave a better FD in the hand.

Any significant raise commits us or gets us close to it.

This one has me puzzled, mostly I guess what does it is villain's pot size flop bet. Any direction you take has pros and cons, and in the end I believe shoving is probably the best. I'm just not sure its exactly a great strategy, but it looks better than the others, cause we have FE, first-in vigorish, it likely chases any better draw and we have a good number of outs to save our ass against an overpair.

All things considered it looks like the better way to go but I really hate to exit a tournament because I miss all my outs (funny how that always seems to be the case when I make these moves), but to quote Vahedi "you have to be willing to die in order to live".
 
A

alan1983

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Id shove. It could help clean up some of your outs with so many still in it.
 
rob5775

rob5775

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Everyone has pretty much nailed it about the flop play. I agree with Snake... I like a good raise more than a shove. We are probably ahead here, and if he has an over pair we have a flush and gut shot draw... so we are likely to improve. I would try to get the most money I can out of this pot, and a shove could scare villain off.

A check/raise (instead of check/shove) might even induce villain to shove into us (which is not a bad thing here). This is a big hand, and we want to build a big pot.

Even with villain holding AA, we are 58% to win. Against a possible range of JJ+/AK, we are 67%. We are only significantly behind to a set (37%).

And in regards to the preflop call - though shandy was OOP when he made the call, the odds were 5-1 at that point, and if the two limpers called also the pot would be 7-1. The odds pretty much negate any position disadvantage and almost make the hole cards irrelevant. I like the call.

Now I'm interested in the results.
 
9

925theoutlaw

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are u gonna give us the outcome of the hand?
 
9

925theoutlaw

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well there is nothin else u could do but go all in, right? i mean if u call he is just gonna bet big on the turn again. i have top pair(on the board) and a straight flush draw, or just a straight draw and a flush draw. good luck
 
S

Shandy

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Hi sorry for the delay, had computer problems- which also caused the loss of the HH- but in the actual hand i shoved, and everyone folded. Just looking back on it i felt that the hand was probably strong enough to just do a standard raise or even just call and check the turn and shove over another bet, this may have picked up a few more chips. As i said the table was still playing very loose, so evn tho there were 4 of us to see the flop after a preflop raise, i don't think that any really have to have a very strong hand.
But now after all the responses saying shove i am starting to see that that probably was the correct move- it would have been tricky if a non club A or K had come on the turn, and my straight draw was quite weak, as being a loose table anyone could have had a 7 or a 9, which they probably call after i do with great pot odds- so yeah probably was the only way to go.
Regarding the preflop call- the guy only minraised, we were all pretty deep stacked so it didnt really hurt to call, and i had huge applied odds if i hit the flop hard against a hand like AA KK.
shandy
 
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