$3.50 NLHE MTT: Two hands from todays game-18 man

[BlueNowhere]

1st hand is more about value. Only have a few hands on guy so don't really know much. My thinking is I usually 3-bet with AKs so I'll call and not polarise my range as if it misses and I've put in a decent wedge of my stack I'm in a pretty shit spot OOP, If I do hit then he'll probably fold to my continuation bet if he has hit anyway. Nice flop for me and tempting to donk bet but I didn't see that as the most +ev route so just checked and hoped he'd fire a continuation bet. He hasn't took a stab at the pot so on the turn I figure I'd fire a small bet out if he wasn't going to do the betting. By the river I'd made the nuts and figured another smallish bet may get paid off and left enough room for him to raise me with a worse flush. ANy flaw in that reasoning and can you see anywhere I could've extracted more value?


PokerStars - $3.11+$0.39|10/20 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: 1,530.00
UTG+1: 1,640.00
MP: 3,050.00
MP+1: 1,420.00
CO: 1,350.00
BTN: 1,380.00
SB: 1,480.00
Hero (BB): 1,650.00

SB posts SB 10.00, Hero posts BB 20.00

Pre Flop: (30.00) Hero has K:spade: A:spade:

fold, fold, MP calls 20.00, MP+1 raises to 80.00, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 60.00, fold

Flop: (190.00, 2 players) K:diamond: J:spade: Q:spade:
Hero checks, MP+1 checks

Turn: (190.00, 2 players) 5:heart:
Hero bets 80.00, MP+1 calls 80.00

River: (350.00, 2 players) 7:spade:
Hero bets 180.00, fold

[spoil]Hero wins 350.00
[/spoil]

Second hand is the one that was from bad to worse to shit. More a case of where are you giving this up. I figure ep is a pretty standard raise size. Flop is rpetty decent, draw out there so I may get a few streets of value off a missed draw. Perhaps should've bet slightly bigger, maybe 410-420, just under psb. Two calls and I was actually putting one of them on jacks, pretty sure QQ+ is re-raising either then or pre. Turn come and I'm thinking I'm pretty ****ed now seen as though I think someone has jacks. Easy check/fold?

PokerStars - $3.11+$0.39|15/30 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG+1: 1,735.00
MP: 1,480.00
MP+1: 3,055.00
CO: 1,000.00
BTN: 1,235.00
SB: 1,395.00
BB: 1,770.00
Hero (UTG): 1,830.00

SB posts SB 15.00, BB posts BB 30.00

Pre Flop: (45.00) Hero has K:spade: K:club:

Hero raises to 90.00, fold, MP calls 90.00, MP+1 calls 90.00, fold, BTN calls 90.00, fold, BB calls 60.00

Flop: (465.00, 5 players) 4:spade: 5:diamond: T:spade:
BB checks, Hero bets 330.00, MP calls 330.00, fold, BTN calls 330.00, fold

Turn: (1455.00, 3 players) J:heart:
Hero bets 630.00, MP raises to 1,060.00 and is all-in, BTN calls 815.00 and is all-in, Hero calls 430.00

River: (4390.00, 3 players) 9:heart:

[spoil]Hero shows K:spade: K:club: (One Pair, Kings) (PreFlop 87%, Flop 89%, Turn 19%)
MP shows T:heart: J:diamond: (Two Pair, Jacks and Tens) (PreFlop 8%, Flop 5%, Turn 40%)
BTN shows J:club: T:diamond: (Two Pair, Jacks and Tens) (PreFlop 6%, Flop 5%, Turn 40%)
MP wins 2,440.00
BTN wins 1,950.00
[/spoil]

 

[RamdeeBen]

First hand:

I prefere to 3 bet here PF, as played though I like to bet the flop to gain as much value from the monster drawing hand it's always + ev here to be bet every street here with all the outs you have. Nothing else you could do as the hand was played out, the intial raiser most likely had a weak middle pair and your calling range has smashed the board so you're never getting more chips of someone.

Second hand:

When the turn comes, I knew he held 10,J. People love to call raises/limp with connectors.

I don't just 3/4 bet the pot here, I just shove the flop, as there are 4 people in the pot and the chances are one of the players has hit something here, 9times out of ten here at least one person here has a flush draw/straight draw or a 6'7 9'T T'J as they are the more calling range hands for people. I've learnt that at these limits, people will call a shove most times on boards like this with any sort of draw, so it's always going to be +EV vs 4 people to shove, as most times you will get a caller.

When you bet and get one caller, the range of hands here is so massive, that I just check the turn as now when you bet you're committed to calling and I bet when you realised before clicking call you was most likely beat. I really would expect a J,10 sort of hand, that's why when so many are in the pot like this and the board is like this, I want people to pay the maximum price to hit their flush/straight etc so will shove vs 4 players here.

 

[baudib1]

hand 1, 3-bet pre, as played bomb flop, as played bomb turn.

hand 2, you seem to end up with retarded stack sizes on the turn a lot. As played obviously call it off.

 

[Jillychemung]

1st hand - Unless you have some regs that you expect to be playing a lot why change your strategy, 3-bet it and keep betting.to get your stack in ASAP.

2nd hand - agree with Ram, just shove the flop here. You will almost always get someone with TP or FD that will call.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Shove flop, 3x pot cuz we don't want them to catch up drawin' to 3outszzz?
Shove flop, 3x pot so we can fold out all hands we crush?
I'm missing something....

I don't play these but prob one adjustment I'd make if I was would be to raise a bit more pre in early levels in EP with big pp's.

 

[Jillychemung]

Shove flop, 3x pot cuz we don't want them to catch up drawin' to 3outszzz?
Shove flop, 3x pot so we can fold out all hands we crush?
I'm missing something.....

If this is Hand 2, yes yur missing the shove for value, with 4 other players in this hand with this flop texture, 2-tone plus 2 connectors, someone WILL have hit this enough that you will get 1 caller, with a hand that you are ahead of, >90% of the time.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Shove flop, 3x pot cuz we don't want them to catch up drawin' to 3outszzz?
Shove flop, 3x pot so we can fold out all hands we crush?
I'm missing something....

I don't play these but prob one adjustment I'd make if I was would be to raise a bit more pre in early levels in EP with big pp's.

Yeah I don't like holding any over pair vs 4 people still to act after I 3/4bet/pot bet the pot.

The flop hits two people more times than not here as opposed to one when there are so many people invovled, I don't think kings are ever holding if we are called more than one person. I'm not even sure if we're favourite or not if called by 2+ people to the turn, if we are I can't imagine being much in front.

 

[BlueNowhere]

First hand:

I prefere to 3 bet here PF, as played though I like to bet the flop to gain as much value from the monster drawing hand it's always + ev here to be bet every street here with all the outs you have. Nothing else you could do as the hand was played out, the intial raiser most likely had a weak middle pair and your calling range has smashed the board so you're never getting more chips of someone.

Second hand:

When the turn comes, I knew he held 10,J. People love to call raises/limp with connectors.

I don't just 3/4 bet the pot here, I just shove the flop, as there are 4 people in the pot and the chances are one of the players has hit something here, 9times out of ten here at least one person here has a flush draw/straight draw or a 6'7 9'T T'J as they are the more calling range hands for people. I've learnt that at these limits, people will call a shove most times on boards like this with any sort of draw, so it's always going to be +EV vs 4 people to shove, as most times you will get a caller.

When you bet and get one caller, the range of hands here is so massive, that I just check the turn as now when you bet you're committed to calling and I bet when you realised before clicking call you was most likely beat. I really would expect a J,10 sort of hand, that's why when so many are in the pot like this and the board is like this, I want people to pay the maximum price to hit their flush/straight etc so will shove vs 4 players here.

Why do we want to donk the flop OOP? My thinking is I haven't really shown any strength so he may fire a continuation bet out here, he has the initiative and I figure 4xBB preflop is going to fire out a continuation bet. When he doesnt I then have to try and get him to put more money in. If I did donk the flop all middle pairs are folding and my ev plummets. I don't usually call but sick of going out with AK so I decided no need to go bust in this hand, I can try and trap and keep the pot under control. Also my range is pretty polarised with a 3-bet OOP. QQ+ AK+ most likely and I'm never going to get value.

On the second hand you think I should shove for value hoping for aa draw to call or to protect what I believe is the best hand? I'm not sure if it is +ev shove 1700 into a pot of 450. Hands that are calling me either have me beat or are drawin. I don't think the amount that people that cal with draws here balnce out the times I'm already beat. Every time I shove I need them to fold 4 out of 5 times or call with a draw to make it profitable. Against 4 people I'm not sure we have those odds.

 

[Jillychemung]

On the second hand you think I should shove for value hoping for aa draw to call or to protect what I believe is the best hand? I'm not sure if it is +ev shove 1700 into a pot of 450. Hands that are calling me either have me beat or are drawin. I don't think the amount that people that cal with draws here balnce out the times I'm already beat. Every time I shove I need them to fold 4 out of 5 times or call with a draw to make it profitable. Against 4 people I'm not sure we have those odds.

Even on the worst draw that you can be facing (As3s) you are still flipping and obv you crush any TP hands and against 45 you are still only 30-70 (we can eliminate T4/T5 from opponents hands). So you have the 21 combos that make sets & 2P, the 5 combos that make a flip (As[2,3,5]s, 2s3s, 6s7s), that's not a lot of hands compared to those you crush (TP+midPP). The problem with making a 'normal' CB or even just PSB is that you will be left with < a PSB if anyone calls not to mention 2+ callers. So with a probability of 90%+ that if you shove the flop here you get 1 caller, you are shoving 1740 (1830-90) to win >3350. I like those odds.

 

[baudib1]

The idea that only hands that have you beat will call is lol. This is a $3.50, people can get pretty creative with sticking it in on worse hands. Expect to get called by JJ, QQ, Tx, 76 and spades.

I like check-shoving, also probably raise to more like 120-150 pre.

 

[WiZZiM]

With baudib,

but if we are going to 3bet it kinda needs to be a small one probably min, keeps the pot in our control since there is little chance original raiser is folding pre and lets us play at least two streets of poker postflop without the pot getting out of our control. (plus we don't really want him to fold pre-flop)

 

[Pascal-lf]

3bet first hand, making it like 230 OOP and just c-betting 250 on 100% of flops we miss. on that flop betting bigger, like 2/3 of pot, and hoping to get money in cos we have amazing equity against his both his flatting and shoving ranges

2nd hand bet more flop, 400 or so, shove turn