$3.50 NLHE MTT: 27 man SNG: Ducks on the Button

jbbb

jbbb

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Total posts
1,384
Chips
0
Well if you've got something which tells you when you are ahead or behind can I have it please? :)
Yeah its call soul read works well ;)

Basically i'm trying to say it gets you in tricky spots. If you've got K3 (or even 96) and the flop is K97 you can make a c-bet with a good amount of confidence your hand is ahead and if called you've got 5 outs.
If you've got 22 and the flop is K97 you're probably ahead but you really have no clue so post flop becomes tricky. If they call your c-bet you have to shut down unless you hit your two outer.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
course we won't know if we are ahead or not, what we do know though is that 66% of the time we "are" ahead. Therefore, it's profitable I guess is what he is saying.
Other people are allowed to have pocket pairs too lol
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Total posts
3,161
Awards
1
Chips
1
Yeah its call soul read works well ;)

Basically i'm trying to say it gets you in tricky spots. If you've got K3 (or even 96) and the flop is K97 you can make a c-bet with a good amount of confidence your hand is ahead and if called you've got 5 outs.
If you've got 22 and the flop is K97 you're probably ahead but you really have no clue so post flop becomes tricky. If they call your c-bet you have to shut down unless you hit your two outer.

So? If you avoid every spot which could possibly be tricky, you're only going to play the nuts and are going to be super exploitable.

If the flop comes K97 I might not c-bet against a fair number of players, but if it comes K93, QJ4, etc, with slightly fewer draws, you can c-bet and expect them to fold out a lot.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
Other people are allowed to have pocket pairs too lol

Yeah but if we went by that motto everytime, we would only be playing Aces on the off chance someone has a better pocket pair than us lol, it's also short handed now you can't just sit and wait for picture cards and higher pocket pairs the blinds are round so quickly.

I think personally, you have to raise up the 2'2s on the button, sure can look like a steal but also gets flatted by other range of hands and at least you have something pre flop so if is checked around you can stab at it and take it down most likely.

It's not as if you're short stacked either, you have a good amount of blinds left, only 5 people left, not sure what hands you intend on playing when it gets to 5 handed but I'm thinking your range has to widen anyway and a pair, is as good as any at this stage.
 
L

losched16

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Total posts
96
Chips
0
Obvious point, but the SB and BB do not know we have 22 here. Everyone is so worried about if the blinds play back or playing a flop with 22. What about the majority of the time we pick up the blinds, plus the times we get called and the villain folds to a c-bet, plus the times we actually do hit our set if called?

We are in position here, take advantage of it and continue to chip up ITM. Depending on the table dynamics, sometimes you can get away with a min raise, sometimes you can't. So I would raise between 2-2.5x here with 22. We very rarely like any flop that does not make us a set, so we c-bet and hope to take down the hand right there (does not need to be big). If our c-bet gets called, then I am happy to try and check down and get to showdown. What about 33, 44, 55? These hands do not play well post flop either without hitting a set. Are you folding those hands on the button.?

So I am fine with raising here. If one of the blinds play back, fold. If they call preflop and call your c-bet, you probably just want to check down and hope to get to showdown.
 
P

PhilIveyLivey

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Total posts
8
Chips
0
This totally depends on game dynamic. 22 here is about as worthless as 83off is. So if we're raising here with 2's, it usually isn't for value as such, mostly we're raising because we think we can take the blinds down pre, or perhaps the blinds call too much preflop and fold too much postflop.

The fact we have 22 here is really like the last thing on my mind here, it's not like "oh, i have 22, i should raise cos it's a pocket pair and pocket pairs friggin rule". THough process should invovle firstly evaluting the blinds and their tendancies. We know these two players like to 3bet and are capable of it. Those 3betting ranges are likely to be far wider vs a button raise, so we can expect to be 3bet pretty often. They also like to call, and these players most likely won't be giving up to postflop c-bets too often.

My main consideration for raising here is previous game dynamic. Have we been raising often? If so, you may just want to muck it here. If you have been tight, then we can probably come in for a raise, just be prepare to fire a few streets at these guys, and check/fold horrible middling boards.

Raising here then checking to get to a showdown makes absolutely no sense Losched. These guys are aggressive, they ain't letting us get to showdown. So if we're planning to raise/check/fold, then we should just fold.

I probably have more that i've missed but overall. If i'm raising 22 here, i'm also raising absolute crap like 84off, cos it plays the same pretty much. Generally against these types of opponants i wouldn't be raising 84off, so i'm likely folding here. If i've been kinda tight then i'm opening, if i've been loose i'm deffo folding.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
This totally depends on game dynamic. 22 here is about as worthless as 83off is. So if we're raising here with 2's, it usually isn't for value as such, mostly we're raising because we think we can take the blinds down pre, or perhaps the blinds call too much preflop and fold too much postflop.

The fact we have 22 here is really like the last thing on my mind here, it's not like "oh, i have 22, i should raise cos it's a pocket pair and pocket pairs friggin rule". THough process should invovle firstly evaluting the blinds and their tendancies. We know these two players like to 3bet and are capable of it. Those 3betting ranges are likely to be far wider vs a button raise, so we can expect to be 3bet pretty often. They also like to call, and these players most likely won't be giving up to postflop c-bets too often.

My main consideration for raising here is previous game dynamic. Have we been raising often? If so, you may just want to muck it here. If you have been tight, then we can probably come in for a raise, just be prepare to fire a few streets at these guys, and check/fold horrible middling boards.

Raising here then checking to get to a showdown makes absolutely no sense Losched. These guys are aggressive, they ain't letting us get to showdown. So if we're planning to raise/check/fold, then we should just fold.

I probably have more that i've missed but overall. If i'm raising 22 here, i'm also raising absolute crap like 84off, cos it plays the same pretty much. Generally against these types of opponants i wouldn't be raising 84off, so i'm likely folding here. If i've been kinda tight then i'm opening, if i've been loose i'm deffo folding.

lol.

That's just as bad as saying 5'5s/6'6s and all other pairs have no value. You forget A,K can miss here so your 2'2s are still good, your pair of nines might still lose to someone with two over cards. It's about being in position with a pocket pair, be it the worse pocket pair you're raising and rightly so, folding here is out of the question in my eyes. How you can state it is as worthless as 8,3os is ridiculous, is that just saying any low/middle is also just as worthless as 8,3?

It does depend on the players at the table at the end of the day, sure they might hit the flop, but chances are they miss it, therefore why not play them in position?
 
P

PhilIveyLivey

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Total posts
8
Chips
0
lol.

That's just as bad as saying 5'5s/6'6s and all other pairs have no value. You forget A,K can miss here so your 2'2s are still good, your pair of nines might still lose to someone with two over cards. It's about being in position with a pocket pair, be it the worse pocket pair you're raising and rightly so, folding here is out of the question in my eyes. How you can state it is as worthless as 8,3os is ridiculous, is that just saying any low/middle is also just as worthless as 8,3?

It does depend on the players at the table at the end of the day, sure they might hit the flop, but chances are they miss it, therefore why not play them in position?

No they have value, but not in this situtation so much. Since we're almost always just bluffing the flop, we're not raising here for value as such, we're raising cos we gots the position. So we're always just playing our opponants hand, not our own, so our hand really doesn't matter at all here. Personally i'd much rather raise with like 87s here, as it has the chance to flop something big, or at least hit some kind of draw so we can continue the hand. Also when we hit a pair it's much more likely to be good than having pocket 2's hold up all the way to the river.

Ask yourself this question.

Does the fact that we have 22 here really matter at all? Could we play 83offsuit the same way?
 
L

losched16

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Total posts
96
Chips
0
Ha. The OP's head must be spinning after this discussion.

Ivey, first off 22 has showdown value, 83 does not. 22 can flop a set and we may be able to stack our opponent, which we cannot just disregard. That's going to be a lot more difficult to do with 83 I would think.

You say why check to get to showdown. What would you do if you raised with AQ, made a cbet when you missed and got called. Would you double or triple barrel? Maybe I make a turn bet with 22 if I think the villain could be drawing, but I would try to get to showdown since I have value ther and I want to keep the pot small. Of course a lot of this has to do with table dynamics. Did you just raise 3 hands in a row? Maybe then you can slow down. Did you just fold several hands in a row? Let's put in a raise on the button.

This is a $3 27 man SNG and we are ITM. we have a pocket pair on the button with 500+ chips in the pot. I'm typically raising to 750. If reraised I fold. If called I will most likely cbet. If my cbet is a called I will evaluate the turn but will try to keep the pot small and get to showdown.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,807
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,026
..... "&" maybe turn is a 'good' scare card to fire on... 'but' maybe villain knows this which then makes it a 'not so good' card to fire another barrel on, lolzz
 
P

PhilIveyLivey

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Total posts
8
Chips
0
Ha. The OP's head must be spinning after this discussion.

Ivey, first off 22 has showdown value, 83 does not. 22 can flop a set and we may be able to stack our opponent, which we cannot just disregard. That's going to be a lot more difficult to do with 83 I would think.

You say why check to get to showdown. What would you do if you raised with AQ, made a cbet when you missed and got called. Would you double or triple barrel? Maybe I make a turn bet with 22 if I think the villain could be drawing, but I would try to get to showdown since I have value ther and I want to keep the pot small. Of course a lot of this has to do with table dynamics. Did you just raise 3 hands in a row? Maybe then you can slow down. Did you just fold several hands in a row? Let's put in a raise on the button.

This is a $3 27 man SNG and we are ITM. we have a pocket pair on the button with 500+ chips in the pot. I'm typically raising to 750. If reraised I fold. If called I will most likely cbet. If my cbet is a called I will evaluate the turn but will try to keep the pot small and get to showdown.

It really doesn't in this situtation for the most part. You are failing to realise these opponants will not just check down when they call the flop. Typical line above would likely see the opponant fire a bet in on the river once they see you check, and guess what, we cannot call because we have very little showdown value. I obv got carried away when we have no showdown value, but we really don't have a lot in this spot i wouldn't imagine.

If we're up against some more passive opponants then yeah we can probably get to a cheap showdown, but as mentioned, i highly doubt they are letting us get to a cheap river, lol. I'm not saying i wouldn't raise here, game dynamic as you mention is important. What i'm saying is that if we're willing to raise with 2's here, we should also be thinking about raising with absolute crap here as well, because the hand is just as easy to play postflop as 2's is, and they both have very little showdown value. Even with decent hands like Q7o 76o and a heap of other funky hands, all of which are just as easy to play postflop as 2's are, but have considerably more showdown value if we hit a pair. And since we're just c-betting most of the time because we think our opponant missed, it won't matter a crap what our hand is.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Total posts
3,161
Awards
1
Chips
1
33 with 15bb isn't similar to this hand mate ;)
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
It really doesn't in this situtation for the most part. You are failing to realise these opponants will not just check down when they call the flop. Typical line above would likely see the opponant fire a bet in on the river once they see you check, and guess what, we cannot call because we have very little showdown value. I obv got carried away when we have no showdown value, but we really don't have a lot in this spot i wouldn't imagine.

If we're up against some more passive opponants then yeah we can probably get to a cheap showdown, but as mentioned, i highly doubt they are letting us get to a cheap river, lol. I'm not saying i wouldn't raise here, game dynamic as you mention is important. What i'm saying is that if we're willing to raise with 2's here, we should also be thinking about raising with absolute crap here as well, because the hand is just as easy to play postflop as 2's is, and they both have very little showdown value. Even with decent hands like Q7o 76o and a heap of other funky hands, all of which are just as easy to play postflop as 2's are, but have considerably more showdown value if we hit a pair. And since we're just c-betting most of the time because we think our opponant missed, it won't matter a crap what our hand is.

Why would you doubt they would let us get to the river cheap? If they miss completly, miss the flop, turn & the river yet we have been firing do you think most of the time they are going to play back and try bluff the board and get you to fold? For one, he doesn't even know what your hand is, it could well be Aces/Kings etc, if you play the board to passively like you literally have nothing then they will notice that. If you play like you would play a higher pair then they are very likely to check/fold even on the turn if they completely miss.

Of course 2'2s aren't the best hand to play, I hate playing 2'2s - all I'm saying is that I don't think you can fold when there is already 500 in the pot this would be far to weak. You have to try and start stealing/winning pots at some point anyway and we do have showdown value here anyway. If we play it like we're holding some garbage, they notice, if you play it like a monster then chances are they are folding. If they do call the flop,turn then obviously it's time to reevaluate but at the end of the day we have to raise it up!
 
P

PhilIveyLivey

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Total posts
8
Chips
0
Why would you doubt they would let us get to the river cheap?

AF of 2.2 and 8.5 over a decent enough sample size.

If they miss completly, miss the flop, turn & the river yet we have been firing do you think most of the time they are going to play back and try bluff the board and get you to fold?

If you bothered to read to whom i was replying too, he suggested that betting flop and checking back turns was good and that we had showdown value on the river, we really don't because they either outflopped us and are checking down for showdown value themselves, or they miss and bluff when we check turn, or miss and float just for the hell of it, and then fire the river cos they saw us check turn. There isn't too many situations when we can feel comfortable to call a bet on the river.

The rest of you're post is just lol.

Oh and i'm yet to be presented with logic or reasoning as to why a garbage hand like Q7off can play pretty much the same way as 2's here. Apart from "we can hit a set" there really isn't much of a reason.

I'm not saying don't raise, i'm saying think about things more than you're own starting hand, because at the end of the day we're playing our opponants not our cards.
 
L

losched16

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Total posts
96
Chips
0
22, and small pocket pairs are blind stealing hands (like QJ type hands) and differ greatly from trash hands like 83 and Qx. Sure with 83 your attempting to steal the blinds, but blind stealing hands also afford you the opportunity to have the best hand if we go to the flop. In addition, we want hands that have some showdown value on their own merit as pocket pairs do (22 beats AK on the river if AK missed, 83 and Qx do not). I know we are essentially flipping by the time we get to showdown if that is the case, but flipping still means we have roughly a 50% chance at showdown if we do not hit our set, whereas 83 and Q7 do not have that equity, especially when they miss.

In your last response, you still discount the fact that we can hit a set with pocket pairs. Trash hands like you mentioned do not do this. As a matter of fact, playing a hand like Q7 post flop is not very comforting either. If we hit our Q, we can be out kicked and potentially lose a huge chunk of our stack. And I am usually not that happy to hit a 7 either, since it is usually not top pair, and if it is, we can be in trouble if we are called preflop with an over pair (88+). On the other hand, small pocket pairs are pretty easy to play. While we are not longer set mining at this stage of the game, when we are in late position, I am happy to open with my pocket pairs. Again, obviously it is nice if we take down the blinds. If we get to a flop and hit our hand, now we are just trying to get max value (12% of time on flop, 8% on turn and river, again, this cannot be disregarded). If we miss (ie. don't hit our set), we make a continuation bet for about 1/3 to 1/2 pot. If called, then we have to re-evaluate on the turn. If we get checked back to, we may look to put in another 1/3 sized bet. If called and checked to on river, we can check down and we do have showdown value if we were getting called down by a draw or high cards (where 83 and Q7 do not have showdown value in this situation). We may also have to check the turn as well for some pot control depending on board texture and of course our opponent. If at any point we meet some resistance- such as getting check raised or our opponent leading out on the turn, then we can dump our hand. No big deal. The beauty is, we should not be losing a lot on these hands either. We try to get it all in somehow if we hit our set, otherwise we try to keep the pot small and take it down on the flop or get to showdown.

So there are several reasons why I am playing 22 and other small pockets here in late position rather than Q7 and 83.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,807
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,026
22, and small pocket pairs are blind stealing hands (like QJ type hands) and differ greatly from trash hands like 83 and Qx. Sure with 83 your attempting to steal the blinds, but blind stealing hands also afford you the opportunity to have the best hand if we go to the flop. In addition, we want hands that have some showdown value on their own merit as pocket pairs do (22 beats AK on the river if AK missed, 83 and Qx do not). I know we are essentially flipping by the time we get to showdown if that is the case, but flipping still means we have roughly a 50% chance at showdown if we do not hit our set, whereas 83 and Q7 do not have that equity, especially when they miss.

In your last response, you still discount the fact that we can hit a set with pocket pairs. Trash hands like you mentioned do not do this. As a matter of fact, playing a hand like Q7 post flop is not very comforting either. If we hit our Q, we can be out kicked and potentially lose a huge chunk of our stack. And I am usually not that happy to hit a 7 either, since it is usually not top pair, and if it is, we can be in trouble if we are called preflop with an over pair (88+). On the other hand, small pocket pairs are pretty easy to play. While we are not longer set mining at this stage of the game, when we are in late position, I am happy to open with my pocket pairs. Again, obviously it is nice if we take down the blinds. If we get to a flop and hit our hand, now we are just trying to get max value (12% of time on flop, 8% on turn and river, again, this cannot be disregarded). If we miss (ie. don't hit our set), we make a continuation bet for about 1/3 to 1/2 pot. If called, then we have to re-evaluate on the turn. If we get checked back to, we may look to put in another 1/3 sized bet. If called and checked to on river, we can check down and we do have showdown value if we were getting called down by a draw or high cards (where 83 and Q7 do not have showdown value in this situation). We may also have to check the turn as well for some pot control depending on board texture and of course our opponent. If at any point we meet some resistance- such as getting check raised or our opponent leading out on the turn, then we can dump our hand. No big deal. The beauty is, we should not be losing a lot on these hands either. We try to get it all in somehow if we hit our set, otherwise we try to keep the pot small and take it down on the flop or get to showdown.

So there are several reasons why I am playing 22 and other small pockets here in late position rather than Q7 and 83.
tks.
I've really been enjoying reading your posts here on CC.
 
L

losched16

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Total posts
96
Chips
0
Thanks man. I appreciate it. Just trying not to screw up too much with the advice...ha
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,807
Awards
6
CA
Chips
1,026
Thanks man. I appreciate it. Just trying not to screw up too much with the advice...ha
So far so good. You're doing a fine job, ;) lol.... (cuz I've been agreeing with everything you've been writing).
Joking aside (sorta joking,lol), I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond in threads & do look forward to reading them (all of them).
tks again! :)
 
Top