$3.5 NLHE STT Turbo: JJ in multiway 3-bet pot

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fundiver199

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Hand is from the first blind level of a 3,5$ 9-man turbo SnG on Stars. I had my HUD running, and it showed the following information about the two opponents:

UTG: VPIP 42 / PFR 23 over 62 hands
UTG+1: VPIP 14 / PFR 8 over 72 hands

How do you play preflop facing this action, and what would you do on the flop? Holding back the rest of the hand history and the results for more unbiased discussion.

pokerstars, $3.16 + $0.34 - Hold'em No Limit - 10/20 (3 ante) - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 1,533 (77 bb)
UTG+1: 1,503 (75 bb)
MP: 1,503 (75 bb)
MP+1: 1,190 (60 bb)
CO: 1,449 (72 bb)
BU: 3,307 (165 bb)
SB: 1,556 (78 bb)
BB (Hero): 1,459 (73 bb)

Pre-Flop: (54) Hero is BB with J♦ J♥
UTG raises to 50, UTG+1 3-bets to 140, 5 players fold, Hero calls 120, UTG calls 90

Flop: (454) 3♣ 4♦ 5♥ (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets 303, BB (Hero)?
 
Edu1

Edu1

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I think I would play the same way preflop.
I think UTG+1 had KK or AA. there's no much to say, the "worst" hand who play this way is AQs.
unfortunately I would fold JJ - the UTG is in the hand also... tough decision
 
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300HPGOD

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This is a hand where the HUD can really help. It makes a large difference in this hand if 3 bettor villain is 14/8 compared to 34/30. Since villain is a tight player and UTG +1 raising over an UTG raise, their range should be very tight and very strong. I think a fairly accurate range here would be 1010+, AK and I am not sure 14/8 even does this raise with AK since their 3 bet % is probably under 3% given their other stats. Also again, factor in they are UTG+1 raising over an UTG opener. JJ isnt beating much here but its too good to fold and the price is really good to set mine. We would only have to worry (and its not really a worry) about UTG 4 betting. If that happens then we can safely pitch our cards knowing JJ was most likely beat.

Given then that we are set mining here I would only be calling on this flop if the flop bet was small (assuming we did not catch something). With a bet this large you are probably beat here although 1010 would play the hand the same way. However, you are beating 1010 and losing to QQ+ (I think AK mostly checks here from 14/8 players going against two opponents). Plus the ace does have the wheel which lowers your equity a touch even if you are up against AK. Its hard to fold JJ or any over pair really when the flop comes out low cards but Im thinking in the long run you save chips by folding here compared to the chips you might make once in a while calling down here and praying for 1010 or AK.
 
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fundiver199

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Thanks for your comments, and I very much agree with both of you. I think, this is one of those situations, where when we put all information together, positions, HUD-data, line creation and bet sizing, then we can put UTG+1 on a very specific range of pretty much only QQ+. And we can also predict, that he is probably going to jam the turn with around a pot sized bet left, if someone call him on the flop. So I folded. UTG called and checked the turn, and as expected UTG+1 jammed the turn. UTG called again, he flipped over a set, and UTG+1 flipped over aces. The river card was a 2 giving UTG+1 a straight, and he scooped the pot :)
 
jaworek1405

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Guys, IMO we should call one time on the flop with pocket JJ. The board is very low. IMO it is too tight fold on the flop. Our hand is too strong to fold on the flop. Opponent who played 3bet pre flop seems tight, but Ako is 99% in his range. Against Ako we are ahead. On the flop 345 rainbow and if he has Ako he has one or two over cards, 3 or 6 outs to hit top pair and 4 outs to complete the straight. So IMO we should one time call the flop and see what opponents will do. Opponents can show a weakness on the next card. If they show a weakness on the turn we have a chance to see the showdown. GL :)
 
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fundiver199

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Guys, IMO we should call one time on the flop with pocket JJ. The board is very low. IMO it is too tight fold on the flop. Our hand is too strong to fold on the flop.

Calling the flop bet is clearly the more GTO way to play JJ. My decision to fold was an exploitative line based on an assumption, that a nitty player like this would not C-bet AK (or any other bluffs) for this sizing in a 3-bet pot with 2 opponents. This might be right or wrong, but it was the logic behind my fold :)
 
toots babos

toots babos

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Do you have utg+1's 3 bet stats? Given they're playing 14/8 I can imagine their 3 bet stats to be as low as 1-2% in which case a fold pre could be made.
 
akmost

akmost

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GR
We don't have many hands on the opponent but this is a super marginal spot. Is it? I play many 45 man SNGs, 72 hands are not enough but something is starting to showing up about the type of the opponent(UTG+1). I haven't seen a single light 3bet vs UTG OR especially in the first level from a UTG+1 unless the UTG+1 player is a crazy one.


His range here is super tight. If I were you I would have folded pre flop because there is so much future game , we are still in level 1 plus I don't want to waste my tournament life in a flip plus the UTG+1 opponent seems solid and I guess his 3bet % is super small as @toots babos has mentioned.

If I wanted to play on the more aggressive approach for me against this particular player I call like you , call flop but give up in every turn bet.

IMO don't overwhelm your head with GTO plays in those small buy ins , it's beneficial for you to know what theory suggests but the winning regulars in those buy ins just win by playing solid. :)
 
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fundiver199

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Do you have utg+1's 3 bet stats? Given they're playing 14/8 I can imagine their 3 bet stats to be as low as 1-2% in which case a fold pre could be made.

3-bet stats dont really begin to become reliable until after around 300 hands. After 72 hands a player with a 3-bet of 8% will have 3-bet 2 times on average, but due to variance it might as well be 0 or 4. So the stat only mean something after 72 hands, if its crazy high, and then VPIP and PFR will also be crazy high.

Even then you need to be a bit carefull. If stats are something like VPIP 31 / PFR 28 / 3-bet 29 over 72 hands, then this player is clearly a LAG, but his true 3-bet percentage is most likely not 29. This is just a case of him running hot over a small sample, and eventually his 3-bet number will drop.
 
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Badday94

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What an unexpected result to this hand, being behind with aces then rivering a straight. I liked how you played preflop and to be honest I would have called the flop bet. I would have been worried only for bigger pocket pair or flush draw, but clearly you knew better than this and saved a lot of chips. Nicely played
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Yeah - damn I hate this spot, but good read on your stats FD.
I have spots like this often when I have a KNOWN nit in front of me that 3bets - and I holding JJ or QQ. I'm ashamed to say I have been stacked holding QQs vs these NITs more than once on low uncoordinated boards, from KK+, sets and boats. I'm still in the learning phase though so I just take it as lessons - I'm learning the hard way.
 
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