3.40 Turbo PS: TPTK against committed opponent river's push

J

jeffred1111

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This move is a flush draw close to 80% of the time in this situation right and with the pot odds with are getting, we have to call this everytime ? Villain is borderline maniac and has been raising with solid hands but going all the way with them if it they don't connect.

Was preflop and flop any good?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed)

MP1 (t1690)
MP2 (t525)
Hero (t1930)
Button (t1015)
SB (t4710)
BB (t1640)
UTG (t1010)
UTG+1 (t2480)

Preflop: Hero is CO with
ac.gif
,
qc.gif
.
UTG calls t100,
1 fold, MP1 raises to t300, MP2 calls t300, Hero calls t300, 3 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t1150)
qs.gif
,
6h.gif
,
3s.gif
(3 players)
MP1 bets t200, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t700, MP1 calls t500.

Turn: (t2550)
kd.gif
(2 players)
MP1 bets t690 (All-In), Hero ????
 
Last edited:
J

jeffred1111

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Pretty much what I thought you would say and I agree with you since I rapped on other people very recently for making this very same mistake. I haven't butchered a hand as badly as this in a long time though... And it was opponent's TURN, not RIVER push.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Seriously, what are we behind to that calls our raise on the flop and pushes on the turn (if we consider preflop play?). The only hands that make sense are AA, KK and QQ, with maybe AK, but AK repops AI on flop or folds.

Do we only give villain's this narrow of a range, especially since we know that villain will play hands that have whiffed completly approx the same way that he plays big hands?


I won't give the results because I don't think this is as clear cut an answer as you put it out to be dj11.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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ok putting aside the preflop mistake should I answer now?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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As played, we have to call this. It may not seem like there's much we beat anymore but we're more than pot-committed and I've seen similar play with absolute trash. Could be a FD, something like AJ, AT A6, JJ - who knows. We didn't define villain's (or our) hand enough preflop to know.

I prefer shoving preflop vs villain, especially with your read. We're at a little bit of an awkward stack size, and raising ~1000 is ok too, but by doing so we're leaving ourself with too small of a stack, and I just prefer shoving with all this dead money lying around.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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If you want to.

seems like I dont need to

As played, we have to call this. It may not seem like there's much we beat anymore but we're more than pot-committed and I've seen similar play with absolute trash. Could be a FD, something like AJ, AT A6, JJ - who knows. We didn't define villain's (or our) hand enough preflop to know.

I prefer shoving preflop vs villain, especially with your read. We're at a little bit of an awkward stack size, and raising ~1000 is ok too, but by doing so we're leaving ourself with too small of a stack, and I just prefer shoving with all this dead money lying around.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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We should just answer every other HA post, and quote each other Storm. Half the work :)
 
J

jeffred1111

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Called, villain shows AsTs and the rivers was the Js. So I made a somewhat good call after butchering preflop. It just goes to show you that one mistake on any street can make a hand unplayable or very difficult to play on later streets, especially if your mistake is going in with a good hand against two other players who are also likely to be holding good hands. Imagine if the flop had come Q8T and that K showed up on the turn. A lot of sets would thus be possible (888 and TTT, since the cutoff to preflop raising in MP is around 66-77 for most)

Preflop, I don't think shoving here is that good of an idea since we have one cold caller who could be trapping (God knows what he has since I don't really remember him playing anything*) plus an original MP raiser who hasn't raised with real trash and is likely to call just for pot odds and because, heh, he has an A and it is suited. These opponents were not rocket scientists postflop and were pretty easy to read/outplay, why sacrifice our positional advantage and risk getting called by better hands a lot of the time?

After thinking long and hard about it, I like a fold preflop without many reads on second position guy (who looks somewhat rock/nit)

* He said after the hand that he had 99, not sure if it's true or not.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Preflop, I don't think shoving here is that good of an idea since we have one cold caller who could be trapping (God knows what he has since I don't really remember him playing anything*)

Smooth calls with players who have already limped are rarely traps. Usually smallish hands like AT, KQ, other suited connectors and medium/small pairs. They're getting in with good odds and want to outflop their opponents.

plus an original MP raiser who hasn't raised with real trash and is likely to call just for pot odds and because, heh, he has an A and it is suited.

I thought you said he was borderline maniac? Maniac means loose play, which means calls from ranges that we have dominated. A)We're not giving him odds to make a 'pot odds call' with a worse hand, and B) we WANT a call from a worse hand!

why sacrifice our positional advantage and risk getting called by better hands a lot of the time?

Regarding outplaying them postflop, fair enough, but we're letting an awful lot of players (MP1, MP2, blinds possibly, and of course utg who will no doubt make an odds call with 10000:1). It doesn't matter how good we are postflop compared to them - if we let in like 4 or 6 players, we're bound to get outflopped and waste 300 chips - a good chunk of our stack.

If we push, we scare out smaller pairs often which we'd normally be coinflipping against, and occasionally get calls with hands we have dominated. I've said this a million times before, but if we get caught vs AK here, we're still only a ~2:1 dog. With MP1's stack size and image, we're probably getting a huge range of hands calling us that we have crushed.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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this is in regards to shoving preflop, 1st lets look at our stack size. 1930 and now lets look at the raise preflop which is 300 thats is 6/10 of our stack so we are putting in like 40% of our stack, now lets look at dead money in the middle. One raise to 300 and one call 300 and blinds 150 so that is 750 in DEAD MONEY which is we win will add just under 50% to our stack.....this is majorly +ev to shove right here and we put origional raiser to the big test here, we show great strength in comming over the top of a raise and cold call. oh wait forgot UTG caller now it is 850 in dead money which is like 45% or so increase to our stack, we either are folding or shoving here bottom line.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 (t1690)
MP2 (t525)
Hero (t1930)
Button (t1015)
SB (t4710)
BB (t1640)
UTG (t1010)
UTG+1 (t2480)

Preflop: Hero is CO with
ac.gif
,
qc.gif
.

UTG calls t100, 1 fold, MP1 raises to t300, MP2 calls t300, Hero calls t300, 3 folds, UTG folds.

 
J

jeffred1111

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Joined
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Total posts
792
As I said, he was borderline maniac: he would raise fair hands PRE, especially OOP, but would take them all the way to the river even if they didn't connect. So we can give him credit for a big hand preflop (or an okay hand), but not necessarily on the flop since he played his monster the same way he played his weak hands/bluffs.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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As I said, he was borderline maniac: he would raise fair hands PRE, especially OOP, but would take them all the way to the river even if they didn't connect. So we can give him credit for a big hand preflop (or an okay hand), but not necessarily on the flop since he played his monster the same way he played his weak hands/bluffs.

Borderline maniac is close enough for me. He's raising a hand as weak as ATs here (and I'm guessing a big handful of pairs), so we're way ahead of his range, have tons of FE here, and with so much dead money in the middle, pushing is the clear option.

The majority of the time we're missing the flop anyways after committing a huge chunk of our stack, and can't continue vs any type of action and several players in the hand.
 
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