$3.40 NLHE STT Turbo: raise pre, hit TP/TK, passive player bets, followed by a raise and shove

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pat3392

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$3.40 NL HE STT Turbo: raise pre, hit TP/TK, passive player bets, followed by a raise and shove

poker stars $3.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+1: t1080 54 BBs
Hero (UTG+2): t1520 76 BBs
MP1: t1950 97.50 BBs
MP2: t1930 96.50 BBs
CO: t1290 64.50 BBs
BTN: t1470 73.50 BBs
SB: t1260 63 BBs
BB: t1500 75 BBs
UTG: t1500 75 BBs

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is UTG+2 with Q:spade: A:club:
2 folds, Hero raises to t60, 1 fold, MP2 calls t60, 3 folds, BB calls t40

Flop: (t190) 4:heart: Q:heart: 7:spade: (3 players)
BB bets t114, Hero calls t114, MP2 raises to t540, BB raises to t1440 all in, Hero?

I really wasn't sure what to do here. The BB was marked as a passive player; however, I was abusing this person's passive tendency the other day and he did change gears against me; perhaps he noted me as a maniac?

I figured that someone here had to have a set, probably too much respect since it is only a $3.40 game
 
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Marginal

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Hes not raising your bet, he is 3 betting another persons raise, this has nothing to do with how he perceives you. This is a pretty easy fold tbh. Best case scenario is that he has KQ and this is slim
 
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WiZZiM

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I usually 4x it at these micro levels for starters. It's a position i'd consider folding the AQ if your not comfortable playing postflop.

Raise flop/fold to action after that? Bb could easily have some sort of two pair hand, we put ourselves in a weird position by not raising the flop, not MP could be raising with a queen, when they may have folded to our flop raise. making our decision to get it in easier. As played i guess i fold, even against a flush draw we arn't in that good of shape. But definately need to raise flop.

So, i think the correct play is, 4x pre, raise flop and probably get it in vs one opponant. if you raise and you get the MP to shove and BB to call, then i think it's a fold.
 
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pat3392

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Hes not raising your bet, he is 3 betting another persons raise, this has nothing to do with how he perceives you. This is a pretty easy fold tbh. Best case scenario is that he has KQ and this is slim

I thought it may have made him call pre with less than premium hands though, but still he has to have something to play back at the other guy. It turns out they both had exactly KQ.... That really got me kicking myself, not sure if I should have called since there wasn't many hands that he could have had that beaten me. It was probably just unlucky that they both had KQ really

Was the first call on the flop good? In my limited experience, these leads are fairly polarized between big hands and nothing.
 
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I usually 4x it at these micro levels for starters. It's a position i'd consider folding the AQ if your not comfortable playing postflop.

Raise flop/fold to action after that? Bb could easily have some sort of two pair hand, we put ourselves in a weird position by not raising the flop, not MP could be raising with a queen, when they may have folded to our flop raise. making our decision to get it in easier. As played i guess i fold, even against a flush draw we arn't in that good of shape. But definately need to raise flop.

So, i think the correct play is, 4x pre, raise flop and probably get it in vs one opponant. if you raise and you get the MP to shove and BB to call, then i think it's a fold.

I dont think we need to raise the flop. We accomplish nothing by doing it. He is either going to reraise us forcing us to fold or fold himself and we lose value from future streets of bluffs. He only calls with KQ or QJ or a flush draw and we could let him do the betting with those hands.
 
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pat3392

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I usually 4x it at these micro levels for starters. It's a position i'd consider folding the AQ if your not comfortable playing postflop.

Raise flop/fold to action after that? Bb could easily have some sort of two pair hand, we put ourselves in a weird position by not raising the flop, not MP could be raising with a queen, when they may have folded to our flop raise. making our decision to get it in easier. As played i guess i fold, even against a flush draw we arn't in that good of shape. But definately need to raise flop.

So, i think the correct play is, 4x pre, raise flop and probably get it in vs one opponant. if you raise and you get the MP to shove and BB to call, then i think it's a fold.

Hmm yeah 4x would probably have been better, shall implement that

I'm not sure if I like the flop raise since if he plays back at me(mr. passive) I'd probably fold, so it is kind of like a bluff. If I raise and passive shoves I'd probably have to fold, or if he calls then leads turn/river I probably would have to fold as well. Unless calling in this spots would be better? I'd call the unknown players shove/turn lead though.

The problem with calling like I did though is I let him dictate how much money goes into the pot. Still, I reckon it may be a better play, idk I'll think about it a bit
 
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pat3392

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I dont think we need to raise the flop. We accomplish nothing by doing it. He is either going to reraise us forcing us to fold or fold himself and we lose value from future streets of bluffs. He only calls with KQ or QJ or a flush draw and we could let him do the betting with those hands.

+1

What I was trying to say
 
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WiZZiM

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You really think they are the only hands these guys will call with in micros? He may be passive, sure, but if he hit TP any kicker, he's going to pay us off more than likely. I don't know, perhaps i'm wrong but, in my experiance at this level guys won't even fold A7 in this spot. However i get your point, it's a dry enough flop to try and extract bluffs on. However i still think i'm raising as we get value from a lot worse than KQ/QJ. and if he truly is passive. how often do you think they will be capable of firing a second barrell with nothing?
 
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pat3392

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You really think they are the only hands these guys will call with in micros? He may be passive, sure, but if he hit TP any kicker, he's going to pay us off more than likely. I don't know, perhaps i'm wrong but, in my experiance at this level guys won't even fold A7 in this spot. However i get your point, it's a dry enough flop to try and extract bluffs on. However i still think i'm raising as we get value from a lot worse than KQ/QJ. and if he truly is passive. how often do you think they will be capable of firing a second barrell with nothing?

Well that's true, I won't be able to extract many bluffs. If he hit TP then the money would probably go-in regardless of a call/raise; if he is prepared to call with QT preflop then I doubt he would fold TP. I can't see villain calling a raise on the flop with A7/K7, so I think it is safe to presume that they will fold. By raising I think we force out the draws and the 7s, by calling we let them tag along; I don't think a free card is terrible since only a K or a heart is bad and even then that's not that likely.

Now that I have thought about I do like the raise; if he has something like QT it may be hard to stack him by calling, probably won't be but may. Probably more likely to be call a raise and be committed by it. Oh and another very important thing; if he has something like 88/99 then a J may scare him of. However, I don't think I'd stack him if I called/raised, especially since he is passive. The second opponent would probably fold to a raise but call a bet with pockets. Hmm this is making me think the call is better. Heh it really is a bit nitty as the differences between the plays don't seem that different. I'll have to go of and let my sub-conscience work this one out
 
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As played I guess we have to fold, there's just too much strength being represented.

I raise the flop as well though, to somewhere in the 300 ballpark. Really all I'm worried about here is sets - two-pair hands are just really unlikely on that board. Flush draws are possible, but does a passive player really lead with them into a three-way pot? An overpair might be possible but it's just too weird for me to think it's likely: villain slowplays it preflop then leads into the preflop raiser on the flop? Surely an overpair is more likely to try a check raise?

Actually... how often does a passive player lead right into you with a set rather than attempting a slowplay either? I think this is Qx a lot more times than it's anything else so I'm raising this for value and to charge the third player if he wants to hang around with a flush draw or something, with a view to getting it in on the turn if we're called.

If BB (or MP2 for that matter) shoves I guess we have to get away and credit someone with the set. The way the hand actually played out, I'm assuming that's what one of them had.
 
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