$3.32 NLHE STT: AK all in? (Early tournament)

[luciusyg]

Hi Guys,

It is still early in the tournament should I have called the all in with my AK? Does the saying "You can't win the tournament in the first round, but you sure can lose it there" apply here?

Cheers,
Lucius Young


poker stars $3.00+$0.32 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds - 7 players - http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1302246
The DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: t1395 13.95 BBs
UTG+1: t1305 13.05 BBs
MP: t2850 28.50 BBs
Hero (CO): t1145 11.45 BBs
BTN: t2975 29.75 BBs
SB: t2210 22.10 BBs
BB: t1050 10.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is CO with Ks Ad
3 folds, Hero raises to t300, 1 fold, SB raises to t2210 all in, 1 fold, Hero calls t845 all in

Flop: (t2390) 2d Js 5d (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t2390) 3c (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t2390) 5h (2 players - 2 are all in)

 

[cjatud2012]

Zero chance you can fold after putting in more than 25% of your stack in pre. If I raise I probably go to t225, not t300. Raising 3x here is probably never a good idea. I might just open-shove here too.

 

[thebigdawg]

Zero chance you can fold after putting in more than 25% of your stack in pre. If I raise I probably go to t225, not t300. Raising 3x here is probably never a good idea. I might just open-shove here too.

+1, very rarely am I folding AK preflop and since your already pot committed I think its a snap call.

 

[cjatud2012]

I should add too that I am still calling when I raise to t225. Raising 3x for no reason is just a bad habit to get into.

 

[OzExorcist]

Stacks are shallow enough that we can just open shove this. If we're going to raise I agree with making it less and I'm raising it planning to call a shove from any of the other players left to act.

Without specific reads on the villains I'm kinda split on which the best one is. If we shove then a big chunk of the worse hands that might have three-bet shoved on us are probably forced to fold but we also avoid awkward spots where someone just flats us preflop then shoves on a flop that we've missed. Open shoving preflop is definitely easier for us, I know that much.

 

[rllngn]

I would have probably did 2.5x raise also just in case I wanted to escape, I never like going all in early in the tourney except for aces or kings

 

[OzExorcist]

I would have probably did 2.5x raise also just in case I wanted to escape, I never like going all in early in the tourney except for aces or kings

So... what range are you putting your opponents on when they shove if you're planning to fold after making it 2.5x?

 

[PurgatoryD]

This is a great discussion! I think it highlights something crucial:

Early in a tourney without any good info on your opponents, this is a bit more difficult situation that it might seem.

Against A+face then any pocket pair is almost a 60% favorite. So if your original raise is interpreted as such, there are those pocket pairs who are going to push hoping you fold but thinking they are still favored if you do call.

I think the consensus here is to not get into this situation in the first place, and I agree. Considering your stack size, I'm for getting all my chips in first. With your stack size, your bet, and the villain's stack size, you're almost asking him to go all-in with any pocket pair. Even if you've got two over cards, he's still a favorite. Without any other info, I put him on a pocket pair here.

I'm glad you posted this. It's going to make me watch how I play AK early in a tourney. Without knowing anything about the villain, it does make it difficult. I usually play MTT. These STT sound brutal... 11X BB and still no info on your opponents?! Ouch!

I can't wait to see how this one played out.

 

[WiZZiM]

If we raise here, it's to induce re-steals.

We can't really afford to be called, by the button or SB here and have to fold postflop to some weird donkbet. Just jam it in and expect to get called with stuff that should be folding.

 

[InTheMoney198]

easy call. i mightve considered either opening smaller to get more stragglers to hit the flop and get it in for a bigger pot or miss the flop and get away w/o risking as much, or open shovve to pick up blinds or a light call.

the way it played out easy call

 

[OzExorcist]

If I can make a general observation, people keep talking about it being "early in the tournament".

Look at the OP again. We're playing seven-handed and the average stack is only 19BB. Our own stack well below the average. We're not early in the game any more. AK is a premium hand and we need to be getting all our chips in preflop. "Getting away cheap" isn't really a win for us here either.

 

[DetroitJimmy]

^^ Yep this is totally a mid game almost end game situation. AK becomes a monster when you are down under 15bb. Shove preflop is best play as you are down to nearly 10bb and can't really get away from hand postflop. You need to be really aggressive preflop after the first couple rounds or if you get shortstacked.

 

[InTheMoney198]

Hi Guys,

It is still early in the tournament should I have called the all in with my AK? Does the saying "You can't win the tournament in the first round, but you sure can lose it there" apply here?

Cheers,
Lucius Young


Poker Stars $3.00+$0.32 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds - 7 players - http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1302246
The DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: t1395 13.95 BBs
UTG+1: t1305 13.05 BBs
MP: t2850 28.50 BBs
Hero (CO): t1145 11.45 BBs
BTN: t2975 29.75 BBs
SB: t2210 22.10 BBs
BB: t1050 10.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is CO with Ks Ad
3 folds, Hero raises to t300, 1 fold, SB raises to t2210 all in, 1 fold, Hero calls t845 all in

Flop: (t2390) 2d Js 5d (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t2390) 3c (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t2390) 5h (2 players - 2 are all in)

is this turbo or non turbo, what is the blind structure, any reads on opponents ???
Its hard to say what i would do w/o any info on whats going on

I like this hand though.

 

[seanDCFC]

Open shove here everytime.

 

[InTheMoney198]

Idk. Maybe im thinking to hard here. I honestly dont find a reason to open shove with AK in late position. Shoving here , IMO, is a reckless play and highly unprofitable. The reason I say this is, the chance of us earning max value when shoving here is unlikely, but making the bet smaller makes the pot bigger and gives our opponents very little fold equity making it much easier to play PF. Here is an example if we made a small raise and got a standard situation.

HAND A
Hero (CO): 1145 11.45 BBs
BTN: 2975 29.75 BBs
SB: 2210 22.10 BBs
BB: 1050 10.50 BBs

Dealt
Hero: Ks Ad
BTN:9s 8s
SB:Ac 5h
BB:7h 2c

Pre Flop: (150) Hero is CO with Ks Ad
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds
Hero raises to 250, BTN calls 250, SB calls 200
BB folds
Flop: (800) As 2d Th
SB checks, Hero bets 375
BTN folds, SB raises all in, Hero call all in.
Turn: (2890) 6 h
River: (2890) K c
SB shows Ac 5h (pair of A's with T kicker)
Hero shows Ad Ks (two pair of A's and K's)
Hero wins (2890)


Hero (CO): 2890 28.9 BBs
BTN: 2725 27.25 BBs
SB: 1065 10.65 BBs
BB: 1050 10.50 BBs



Now here is that same hand if we were to shove PF.

HAND B
Hero (CO): 1145 11.45 BBs
BTN: 2975 29.75 BBs
SB: 2210 22.10 BBs
BB: 1050 10.50 BBs

Dealt
Hero: Ks Ad
BTN:9s 8s
SB:Ac 5h
BB:7h 2c

Pre Flop: (150) Hero is CO with Ks Ad
UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2 folds
Hero raises to all-in, BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds.
Hero wins (150)


Hero (CO): 1295 12.95 BBs
BTN: 2975 29.75 BBs
SB: 2160 21.60 BBs
BB: 950 9.5 BBs


So since we made a small raise PF in 'HAND A' , we attracted the 2 big stacks with mediocre hands. We flop the A and so does SB. Since we raised small PF we got action we wouldn't have gotten if we shoved Pf, as showed in 'HAND B'

PROS-A​

• building a bigger pot while risking only ~20% our stack
• allowing 2 big stacks to enter the pot and get paid if we hit the flop
• reserve enough chips(if we miss the flop we still have breathing room) and can get away with minimum loss
• allow villain 3bet shove PF to resteal and get it in
• get through BTN, SB and BB and pick up $150, while risking only $250
• villain gets KOed and we are 1 man closer to victory

PROS-B​

• get it allin and double up
• steal the blinds and pick up $150

making a smaller raise here seems to give us a lot more opportunities to build our stack up without risking too much, and open shoving only gives us 2 opportunities to build our stack while risking our tournament.

CONS-A​

• allow opponents in the pot cheaper
• missing the flop

CONS-B​

• getting it all in behind
• big risk/ small reward
• only getting called by better

All together, I believe, opening small is the best option

 

[InTheMoney198]

Couldve showed more EXs etc. just wanted to be done
lol

 

[Aldito]

I would just shove pre tbh. Nothing worse than whiffing the flop with AK there and having to c/f. As played call obv...

 

[seanDCFC]

What do you do if you miss the flop?

 

[Poker Orifice]

I should add too that I am still calling when I raise to t225. Raising 3x for no reason is just a bad habit to get into.

Personally I don't think the 3x raise is that bad here as it'll leave you a pot-sized shove for the flop if called pre. ... 'but'.. I'd be shoving here instead 100% of the time.
As far as how it was played... "NEVER FOLDING" "EVER"!!! Anytime you're raising preflop you need to 'look ahead' & take into account the stacks on your left (obv. referring more to spots where we're deeper than this). In this hand you have to know that you're always calling here.... & the 'only' reason I'd even consider raising over shoving pre is in hopes that another will reraise me allin.

 

[InTheMoney198]

What do you do if you miss the flop?

Im check/folding if i miss most of the time. Unless its a dry dry dry board im check/folding. It still leaves me 9BBs in a STT. pretty easy to build from there

 

[Poker Orifice]

Stacks are shallow enough that we can just open shove this. If we're going to raise I agree with making it less and I'm raising it planning to call a shove from any of the other players left to act.
Agreed^... for me it's a bit dependant on who's to my left, ie. if there's someone bad enough to not see I've got a monster & wants to rrai.. great! Otherwise just shove pre.
Without specific reads on the villains I'm kinda split on which the best one is. If we shove then a big chunk of the worse hands that might have three-bet shoved on us are probably forced to fold but we also avoid awkward spots where someone just flats us preflop then shoves on a flop that we've missed. Open shoving preflop is definitely easier for us, I know that much.

... and this ^

I would have probably did 2.5x raise also just in case I wanted to escape, I never like going all in early in the tourney except for aces or kings

NEVER this ^

If we raise here, it's to induce re-steals.
again yes this ^
We can't really afford to be called, by the button or SB here and have to fold postflop to some weird donkbet. Just jam it in and expect to get called with stuff that should be folding.

Probably not folding to the donkbet anyways

^^ Yep this is totally a mid game almost end game situation. AK becomes a monster when you are down under 15bb. Shove preflop is best play as you are down to nearly 10bb and can't really get away from hand postflop. You need to be really aggressive preflop after the first couple rounds or if you get shortstacked.

yah... 10'ish' bb's in LP with blinds at 50/100 is definitely not first round

 

[InTheMoney198]

... and this ^

NEVER this ^

Probably not folding to the donkbet anyways

yah... 10'ish' bb's in LP with blinds at 50/100 is definitely not first round

wtf?

 

[seanDCFC]

Thats a weak line to take imo.

 

[ben_rhyno]

Imo Its probably an open shove, and at the very least a 2.5x raise pre and stop n go

 

[DetroitJimmy]

Stop n go isn't really an option since we have position. You would flat a raise then shove any flop OOP. Stop n go would work well with the button stealing the BB though since there is little FE.