$3.30 NLHE MTT Rebuy: Facing Check-Jam with middle Set

theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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$3.30 1500gtd on ACR

We are ITM - and have made one money jump.

I have approximately 30bb, in the top 15 in chips with about 65 players remaining out of 350.

Sub 20bb stack opens from UTG+2 2bb.
HJ villain calls with a starting stack of 35bb.

I'm on the button holding pocket TTs and I call. TTs for me is not a 3bet in this spot. I'd rather play them cautiously as I'm more comfortable playing post flop than leaving fate up to the poker gods having to flip if jammed on pre. I call and the blinds fold.

Flop is 7TJ two clubs and I hold the Ten of clubs.

UTG+2 checks, HJ checks and I bet into a 7.5bb pot 3.3bb.

UTG+2 makes the call, and HJ jams.

Range of HJ? Any two clubs, including Ax & Kx. JJ, 77, T/7, J/T although unlikely, 8/9, 6/8?

I make the call - if I'm beat - so be it.
UTG+2 calls as well and turns over A/J spades.

HJ turns over 8/9 clubs and scoops when the board doesn't pair.

So - backfire on my passivity not to 3bet TTs. Yep. But - I can count 10x the number of hands I have either collected a mound of chips or been able to escape, by not 3betting TTs.

So - in this instance I should have 3bet - would have collected UTG+2's stack and most likely pushed out HJ preflop.
 
puzzlefish

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Rule of thumb in online poker is that if you flop a monster but it is beatable, another player most likely has a hand that will beat you. If it's a set on a board that can form a straight, then your villain is betting the straight. If you flop a straight and the board is suited, your villain is most likely going to hit a flush.

The only way to avoid this particular situation was for you to 3bet to try and get the player with the connector to fold. So in a way you engineered your own demise by not raising or jamming.
 
theANMATOR

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Rule of thumb in online poker is that if you flop a monster but it is beatable, another player most likely has a hand that will beat you. If it's a set on a board that can form a straight, then your villain is betting the straight. If you flop a straight and the board is suited, your villain is most likely going to hit a flush.

The only way to avoid this particular situation was for you to 3bet to try and get the player with the connector to fold. So in a way you engineered your own demise by not raising or jamming.

Totally accurate and on point. :icon_thum

And thanks for the solid rule of thumb. I'm gonna have to put that on a sticky and paste it to my monitor. :icon_thum
 
eetenor

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$3.30 1500gtd on ACR

We are ITM - and have made one money jump.

I have approximately 30bb, in the top 15 in chips with about 65 players remaining out of 350.

Sub 20bb stack opens from UTG+2 2bb.
HJ villain calls with a starting stack of 35bb.

I'm on the button holding pocket TTs and I call. TTs for me is not a 3bet in this spot. I'd rather play them cautiously as I'm more comfortable playing post flop than leaving fate up to the poker gods having to flip if jammed on pre. I call and the blinds fold.

Flop is 7TJ two clubs and I hold the Ten of clubs.

UTG+2 checks, HJ checks and I bet into a 7.5bb pot 3.3bb.

UTG+2 makes the call, and HJ jams.

Range of HJ? Any two clubs, including Ax & Kx. JJ, 77, T/7, J/T although unlikely, 8/9, 6/8?

I make the call - if I'm beat - so be it.
UTG+2 calls as well and turns over A/J spades.

HJ turns over 8/9 clubs and scoops when the board doesn't pair.

So - backfire on my passivity not to 3bet TTs. Yep. But - I can count 10x the number of hands I have either collected a mound of chips or been able to escape, by not 3betting TTs.

So - in this instance I should have 3bet - would have collected UTG+2's stack and most likely pushed out HJ preflop.


Thank you for posting.

We want to be consistent in our decisions preflop and post flop so if we are going to be cautious with TT preflop we have to do the same post flop.

As others have stated TT is not the nuts here, in fact it is the 3rd nuts and if a V has KcQc we are only 60% to win.

Yes a set is a strong hand but we are sub 30bb and pot is 7bb so we can stack off on 2 streets we do not need to build the pot on the flop.
We are going to stack- betting the turn- all the hands we would stack by betting flop and some hands that need to hit the turn to stack off
We are also IP with post flop skill advantages so we can pot control turn on straight and flush cards drawing to our full. Then make very good river decisions.
We can also stack protect if both our V want to stack off on turn because we have a skill advantage over the field. Yes that means folding the set on turn. We do fold sets to stay alive vs weak fields.

When we bet 3bb only the hands we did not want to fold fold. The other issue with betting is the action that happened-one player slow playing the nuts while another over values top pair and us stuck in the middle not sure if we call the shove do we have 60% TT vs KcQc or 33% as played equity or 7% TT vs JJ and 8c9c?

Many players slam Phil Helmuth saying he is only good at beating large field weak player events. Well if you are in those type of events- be like Phil-
protect your stack-use your skill advantage by staying alive-this means you get less EV from individual hands but you run deep more often.
That is the preflop choice you made and it was a good choice in these fields -you just have to do it post flop in the right spots :Dnot all spots.:eek:

This spot is one of those spots.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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I think if you're folding middle set there, you'll be overfolding that spot.

Also, since the drooler with AJ comes along too, you're getting the 2;1 you need to boat up (or quad up).
 
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My thinking on 3 betting pre there would depend on what you think of villains, what they think of you and are you ready to get it in if 4 bet? If you are not prepared to call a 4 bet (not saying you should or shouldnt be but am trying to say you cant 3 bet there without knowing how you will react to a 4 bet BEFORE you 3 bet) and you think villains might be sneaky (especially middle villain) then I think calling in this spot can be fine pre.

On the flop I would have bet a little larger than you did since the board is wet, probably hit someone and at this stage you want someone to call a bet and get value. When you get check jammed on it is worrisome however I think we can throw JJ out for villain No. 2 as they only called the raise pre and would definitely have raised with JJ. That leaves 77, 89, KQ, club draw, Jx or some random bluff hand left. Lets also assume villain No. 1 does not call for pit odds purposes which would leave us calling roughly 27 BBs to win 41 BBs if my math is correct. That is 1.5:1 so you need to win 1 in every 2.5 times or 40%. The hand I would be most concerned with if it was flipped over would be 98 of clubs (which they had) but even against that you are 38% which makes it close. Yes there is ICM to worry about and laddering up but just on pot odds alone (since you start this hand somewhat shallow) its close to a call even if villain has the worst hand they could have from our perspective. The times they have A8 of clubs or KQ of clubs or something like that makes up that 2% difference. To me here given you started with 30 BBs I dont think you can fold here and you need to go with it.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
Calling behind with TT is not a terrible play here and certainly better than folding. But when you are taking TT multiway, you are mostly playing it is a setmine. A ton of boards will bring overcards, and its very tough to continue on those against multible opponents. So in my opinion you get poor equity realisation by just calling here and allowing a multiway pot. And when you occationally flop an overpair, you still go broke to JJ-AA. So for me I much prefer to go for the squeeze play here, unless for some reason I thought, the call from CO was very likely to be a "trap". That can happen, but especially in the micros its way more common, that its a marginal hand just like the one, he actually had.

Flop
No way to get away from a flopped set. If HJ only calls with 98s, there is only 4 combos of that, and its just as likely, someone can have 77 as JJ, so set over set is neutral EV, when you have middle set. Just a bit unlucky, but this could likely have been avoided by 3-betting pre and force a hand like 98s to fold.
 
theANMATOR

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Continue playing cautiously

Thank you for posting.

We want to be consistent in our decisions preflop and post flop so if we are going to be cautious with TT preflop we have to do the same post flop.

As others have stated TT is not the nuts here, in fact it is the 3rd nuts and if a V has KcQc we are only 60% to win.

Yes a set is a strong hand but we are sub 30bb and pot is 7bb so we can stack off on 2 streets we do not need to build the pot on the flop.
We are going to stack- betting the turn- all the hands we would stack by betting flop and some hands that need to hit the turn to stack off
We are also IP with post flop skill advantages so we can pot control turn on straight and flush cards drawing to our full. Then make very good river decisions.
We can also stack protect if both our V want to stack off on turn because we have a skill advantage over the field. Yes that means folding the set on turn. We do fold sets to stay alive vs weak fields.

When we bet 3bb only the hands we did not want to fold fold. The other issue with betting is the action that happened-one player slow playing the nuts while another over values top pair and us stuck in the middle not sure if we call the shove do we have 60% TT vs KcQc or 33% as played equity or 7% TT vs JJ and 8c9c?

Many players slam Phil Helmuth saying he is only good at beating large field weak player events. Well if you are in those type of events- be like Phil-
protect your stack-use your skill advantage by staying alive-this means you get less EV from individual hands but you run deep more often.
That is the preflop choice you made and it was a good choice in these fields -you just have to do it post flop in the right spots :Dnot all spots.:eek:

This spot is one of those spots.

Hope this helps
:):)

Thank you for the analysis E. So - in this instance - when I decided not to 3bet which is roughly between 25% - 50% of the time for me, in situations like this where I don't have reads on villains, should I NOT bet the flop, and let my opponents and myself see a free turn card?
 
theANMATOR

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My thinking on 3 betting pre there would depend on what you think of villains, what they think of you and are you ready to get it in if 4 bet? If you are not prepared to call a 4 bet (not saying you should or shouldnt be but am trying to say you cant 3 bet there without knowing how you will react to a 4 bet BEFORE you 3 bet) and you think villains might be sneaky (especially middle villain) then I think calling in this spot can be fine pre.

On the flop I would have bet a little larger than you did since the board is wet, probably hit someone and at this stage you want someone to call a bet and get value. When you get check jammed on it is worrisome however I think we can throw JJ out for villain No. 2 as they only called the raise pre and would definitely have raised with JJ. That leaves 77, 89, KQ, club draw, Jx or some random bluff hand left. Lets also assume villain No. 1 does not call for pit odds purposes which would leave us calling roughly 27 BBs to win 41 BBs if my math is correct. That is 1.5:1 so you need to win 1 in every 2.5 times or 40%. The hand I would be most concerned with if it was flipped over would be 98 of clubs (which they had) but even against that you are 38% which makes it close. Yes there is ICM to worry about and laddering up but just on pot odds alone (since you start this hand somewhat shallow) its close to a call even if villain has the worst hand they could have from our perspective. The times they have A8 of clubs or KQ of clubs or something like that makes up that 2% difference. To me here given you started with 30 BBs I dont think you can fold here and you need to go with it.

Thank you for your review HP. I think my trepidation in 3betting was unfamiliarity with my opponents (which is not really a good reason) and the awkward stack size of 30bb. Although I had a healthy stack size compared to the majority of the field. 20-30bb in general is just - awkward...
 
theANMATOR

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Preflop
Calling behind with TT is not a terrible play here and certainly better than folding. But when you are taking TT multiway, you are mostly playing it is a setmine. A ton of boards will bring overcards, and its very tough to continue on those against multible opponents. So in my opinion you get poor equity realisation by just calling here and allowing a multiway pot. And when you occationally flop an overpair, you still go broke to JJ-AA. So for me I much prefer to go for the squeeze play here, unless for some reason I thought, the call from CO was very likely to be a "trap". That can happen, but especially in the micros its way more common, that its a marginal hand just like the one, he actually had.

Flop
No way to get away from a flopped set. If HJ only calls with 98s, there is only 4 combos of that, and its just as likely, someone can have 77 as JJ, so set over set is neutral EV, when you have middle set. Just a bit unlucky, but this could likely have been avoided by 3-betting pre and force a hand like 98s to fold.

I'm glad I posted this hand - I certainly played overly cautious and it was incorrect.
As I mentioned above 20-30bb is an awkward stack size - however I should have realized I should be applying pressure to my opponents here. Still - with TTs I 3bet to 7bb and UTG+2 shoves, HJ villain (should) fold, and I'd really have a decision to make.
If I decided to 3bet - I'm certain I would have called it off, but still TTs shrinks to an EP shove, we re-look at our cards and our TTs have all the sudden become tts. :)
 
eetenor

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Thank you for the analysis E. So - in this instance - when I decided not to 3bet which is roughly between 25% - 50% of the time for me, in situations like this where I don't have reads on villains, should I NOT bet the flop, and let my opponents and myself see a free turn card?


Thank you for responding

This is not a free card killing us situation as the cards that beat us are mostly cards that hit the hands that check call 3bb on this flop. So our bet is to build the pot not protect the hand but we do not need to build the pot because 1 V has 18 bb and we have only 28 and the pot is 7.5bb. A half pot bet called 3 ways on turn makes the pot 18 we have only 24.5 1.3 SPR an easy shove on river for full value vs V that call 2 often.

Plus as I stated if the nuts are not present and the board runs out blank blank, we stack the AJ hand on the river when we check flop. Our check flop is a delayed c-bet hidden strength check not a scared of everything check and we are up against V that overplay hands not overfold them or even correctly fold them. So we stack a wider range of hands by checking flop.

As you saw here though these V also incorrectly check the nuts so both these players might have had JJ and checked. AJ thought that was the nuts and checked it. It is this possible action as well as draws not folding that makes the delayed c-bet the best option. These V might check shove KcQc on flop yes we are 60% to win vs that hand but if we see a non club turn and then get all-in vs KcQc we are 68% a great reason to delay c-bet.

All the factors I mentioned have to be present combined with our preflop actions for the check to be correct. The main factor being your SPR in this pot and your stack size vs field stack size.

When it is said -stack protection- it means maintaining our skill advantage
Keeping 28bb -when we get to use our skill advantage on turn and fold turn to the bet by first V shove by second V is soo much better for us strategically than calling and having 16bb as played at this stage of the tournament. Yes just like Phil we will be wrong sometimes but we will be live to play on.
You yourself stated your advantage is post flop we need to keep that 28bb stack to have that advantage at this stage of the tournament.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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boa analise de jogadores antes da decisão é o mais importante.
 
AKQ

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thats always a concept I try to practice
Risk vs reward ratio

I call it red line blue line
red aggressive and trying to take the pot preflop or on the flop

blue line is getting value, allowing more risk for a greater reward
removing isolation

sometimes we 3 bet
sometimes we don't
its all about figuring out which spot is which



sometimes getting that 7bb pot preflop
is better than going 3 ways to a flop
 
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You're thinking right. You need to play squiz preflop 10bb or push. A 10bb squiz looks scarier and that's why I would choose this option. Playing squiz, we do not lower our hands worse into the game and do not let them be realized for cheap.
 
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fundiver199

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As I mentioned above 20-30bb is an awkward stack size -

30BB is an awkward stack size. 20BB is extremely easy, since its pure rejamming territory. You did not mention the stack sizes of the players in the blinds. But if they were both 25BB or less, it would be completely fine to just jam it in for your 30BB with any hand, you want to play. The rationale here is, that HJ is probably just a fish wanting to see a cheap flop and not understanding, that he should also 3-bet any hand, that he wants to play. So we dont even need to worry about him, because its so ultra rare, that he will have JJ+. If however one of the players in the blinds were also 30+BB, then I prefer to go for a small 3-bet to leave myself room to fold to a cold 4-bet.


Still - with TTs I 3bet to 7bb and UTG+2 shoves, HJ villain (should) fold, and I'd really have a decision to make.

A small 3-bet commits us against UTG+2, and he is likely never just calling a 3-bet with his stack size and a guy left to act in between. So we know already, that he will either fold or jam, and if he jam, we are beating him into the pot. We are more happy, if he fold, but its not the end of the world, if he jam, since we are going to be a 55% favourite against two overcards more often than a 4:1 dog against JJ+. And once in a while we might even get it in against a hand, we dominate, like 99 or ATs, depending how wide he wants to defend.
 
theANMATOR

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thats always a concept I try to practice
Risk vs reward ratio

I call it red line blue line
red aggressive and trying to take the pot preflop or on the flop

blue line is getting value, allowing more risk for a greater reward
removing isolation

sometimes we 3 bet
sometimes we don't
its all about figuring out which spot is which



sometimes getting that 7bb pot preflop
is better than going 3 ways to a flop

Thanks for your input AKQ. Yeah - its a balance right - vs certain opponents, at certain stages of the events, and in certain positions. :icon_thum
 
theANMATOR

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30BB is an awkward stack size.
A small 3-bet commits us against UTG+2, and he is likely never just calling a 3-bet with his stack size and a guy left to act in between. So we know already, that he will either fold or jam, and if he jam, we are beating him into the pot. We are more happy, if he fold, but its not the end of the world, if he jam, since we are going to be a 55% favourite against two overcards more often than a 4:1 dog against JJ+. And once in a while we might even get it in against a hand, we dominate, like 99 or ATs, depending how wide he wants to defend.


This encapsulates this hand perfectly.
This is one of many of the KEY elements I need to work on Thanks for the follow up FD.
 
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1984

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$3.30 1500gtd on ACR

We are ITM - and have made one money jump.

I have approximately 30bb

20bb UTG+2
HJ 35bb.


Didn't play for a while in any WPN rooms, but if it was the 8 min blind level, then it is definitely a preflop allin for me, even on the 12 min blind level ones, i don't have problem play a flip vs. the 20BB guy, maybe he can even fold it too, and rarely will show higher pair, based on HJ call, you easily front of his hand, so he definitely don't want preflop allin vs. a similar stack size guy, if he wants, good for you.

The only thing why the call looks okay, if the open bet came from a very tight player, in that case probably the call okay, but it is still allin on flop. And you have 6 outs on flop, probably 9 after turn, so that's still not that bad.

and in those 8max tourneys, you must rely on luck a bit more in situations like this, especially on 8min blind levels, you can't miss flop sets, slowplay preflop so strong starting hands. if i remember well in that phase on tourneys like this, usually the average stack is around 20-25BB and blind jumps are huge, so you must consider that factor, too...
 
theANMATOR

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Didn't play for a while in any WPN rooms, but if it was the 8 min blind level, then it is definitely a preflop allin for me, even on the 12 min blind level ones, i don't have problem play a flip vs. the 20BB guy, maybe he can even fold it too, and rarely will show higher pair, based on HJ call, you easily front of his hand, so he definitely don't want preflop allin vs. a similar stack size guy, if he wants, good for you.

The only thing why the call looks okay, if the open bet came from a very tight player, in that case probably the call okay, but it is still allin on flop. And you have 6 outs on flop, probably 9 after turn, so that's still not that bad.

and in those 8max tourneys, you must rely on luck a bit more in situations like this, especially on 8min blind levels, you can't miss flop sets, slowplay preflop so strong starting hands. if i remember well in that phase on tourneys like this, usually the average stack is around 20-25BB and blind jumps are huge, so you must consider that factor, too...

Great feedback 84 thank you. Yes this is the later 8 minute blind level event. It is very much my favorite regular event I play. Seems I'm able to exploit players in the later events more so - than I'm able in the earlier events I play, when I'm able to play early in the day.

You are spot on with your memory of the average stack and blind levels.
Last year I won this event 3 or 4 times. This year I've managed to only place 2nd-3rd only twice. :(
 
theANMATOR

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Didn't play for a while in any WPN rooms, but if it was the 8 min blind level, then it is definitely a preflop allin for me,


I noticed under your name it says Banned - what was your crime?
 
theANMATOR

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He obviously cant answer you, when he is banned from the forum :)
Did a little sleuthing - I'm guessing it was his omnicrom/covid posts. :):eek: or quite possibly a couple that were removed when banned. :confused::(
 
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fundiver199

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Did a little sleuthing - I'm guessing it was his omnicrom/covid posts. :):eek: or quite possibly a couple that were removed when banned. :confused::(

Obviously only the moderator know, why someone were banned. But as I understand it, the most common reason is sharing the freeroll passwords.
 
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