$3.30 NLHE MTT: Enough outs to pay to see fifth street?

Grebbsy

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First shot at posting a hand to this forum, please excuse any n00b errors!

Early days in this tournament and everyone is playing pretty tight at my table. Consequently I'm allowing myself to loosen up a wee bit (at a looser table I'd probably play tighter and not make the initial raise):

full tilt poker - Hold'em Tournament - $20/40 Blinds - 9 Players
Hand Converter by Pokerhand.org

BTN: $4,145
Villain (SB): $5,765
BB: $1,240
UTG: $5,970
Hero (UTG+1): $4,995
MP1: $3,910
MP2: $2,145
MP3: $5,730
CO: $4,015

Pre-flop: Dealt to Hero AS 8S
(1 folds), Hero raises to $80, (3 folds), CO raises to $160, BTN calls $160, Villain calls $140, (1 folds), Hero calls $80

Flop: ($680) 5S 7S AD (4 Players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $200, CO raises to $555, (1 folds), Villain calls $555, Hero calls $355

Turn: ($2,345) 6H (3 Players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $2,345, (1 folds), Villain raises to $4,690

That was an unwelcome reraise. Did he have a straight? -- unlikely, cos what the hell was he betting on before he hit it, I reasoned. Is it a flush draw? If so I'm laughing, because if a fifth spade hits the board I've got the nuts over any two spades he may be holding. More likely I figure he's on two pair or trips, in which case I have practically as many outs as it's possible to have; quick rough totting up (in the few seconds I have) suggest maybe as many as half the deck!

Do I call?

Would you call?
 
D

DeadlyAim

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You miss bet this pot. I think with A8 suited u want to limp in first. Cause a AK, AQ, AJ might over bet pre-flop, flop and turn.

The way you can counter act some A with better kicker is with a flush but u got to hit.

So a limp... initially does two things hides ur flush... second if CO bets pre-flop it alerts u of A strong ace. I would check flop why? Cause u basically can't lose here. 57... 468 maybe an unlikely straight draw of which spade means u got a killer trap. Not scared of any over pairs either only A with better kicker.

If A10 or better kicker out there he would fear the flush draw and try scare u off. I would bet 200 like u did... to scare off limpers but not with A8 suited but if I had an AJ hoping a spade miss the turn at that point I'd nail hero allin like villain did hoping to scare out any flush draws and happy with a fold. 75%+ odds to win if spade misses river.

Hero should consider trapping here by checking... then villian and like CO did reveal they got an A by betting pre-flop and flop hoping to scare off flush draws.

84 who would call with dat especially with 2 re-raises pre-flop... u should have villian pegged as a calling station like 10 mins ago... and if he is dat is the only way he called with dat.

Aces suited are excellent trap cards its wise to check rather then bet... other reason is u scare victims away by doing so.
 
Lucothefish

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A small mistake pre (a loose open) snowballs into your whole stack. I don't hate the preflop raise but suddenly you're down the rabbit hole and before you know it you're posting on cc about it. Fold pre and avoid playing marginal hands OOP.

Not going to comment on each street but you're committed to the hand after your turn bet, can't fold now. If he has a set then some of your outs are poisoned.

This whole hand is completely avoidable though.
 
MasterOfDisaster

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A small mistake pre (a loose open) snowballs into your whole stack. I don't hate the preflop raise but suddenly you're down the rabbit hole and before you know it you're posting on cc about it. Fold pre and avoid playing marginal hands OOP.

Not going to comment on each street but you're committed to the hand after your turn bet, can't fold now. If he has a set then some of your outs are poisoned.

This whole hand is completely avoidable though.

This looks a bit on the looser site. Probably would fold this more often than not preflop as well.

As played , think you couldn´t get it in on the flop, the SB Villain played the hand calling a 3bet OOP preflop first from CO (need to remember this if you are playing later streets)

You flop a monster flop , but than you are donkleading vs the 3better? What do you want to achieve here?

After the donklead on the flop, the original 3better raises you. Here the SB villain calls (think this is often a really strong hand also combined with his PF play or you are up against a complete retard) As played now you are calling of course (odds), but you also should give both villains a range as you have toppair and the nutflushdraw there aren't to many other strong combo's in SB range than sets.

Than you donklead (if it is called that way) the turn again?????? What were you thinking there? I think you played all 3 streets (PF, flop and turn) not good.

Of course as played you can never ever folding anymore on the turn, but like Luco said, you should avoid these spots, even more if you are that bad postflop (like you played here).
 
atlantafalcons0

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Just check back the turn. Hopefully the CO checks too. This gives you a free chance to see if you nut up.

If they do bet I'm sure it wouldn't be AI on the turn.

As played, I think you've put so much money in already you might as well call.
 
D

doomasiggy

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Probs folding pre from UTG+1 w/ As8s. Just too difficult to play oop. As played probs checking back the turn for pot control.
 
pocketehs

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You miss bet this pot. I think with A8 suited u want to limp in first. Cause a AK, AQ, AJ might over bet pre-flop, flop and turn.

The way you can counter act some A with better kicker is with a flush but u got to hit.

So a limp... initially does two things hides ur flush... second if CO bets pre-flop it alerts u of A strong ace. I would check flop why? Cause u basically can't lose here. 57... 468 maybe an unlikely straight draw of which spade means u got a killer trap. Not scared of any over pairs either only A with better kicker.

If A10 or better kicker out there he would fear the flush draw and try scare u off. I would bet 200 like u did... to scare off limpers but not with A8 suited but if I had an AJ hoping a spade miss the turn at that point I'd nail hero allin like villain did hoping to scare out any flush draws and happy with a fold. 75%+ odds to win if spade misses river.

Hero should consider trapping here by checking... then villian and like CO did reveal they got an A by betting pre-flop and flop hoping to scare off flush draws.

84 who would call with dat especially with 2 re-raises pre-flop... u should have villian pegged as a calling station like 10 mins ago... and if he is dat is the only way he called with dat.

Aces suited are excellent trap cards its wise to check rather then bet... other reason is u scare victims away by doing so.

:)
 
Ducky7

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You miss bet this pot. I think with A8 suited u want to limp in first. Cause a AK, AQ, AJ might over bet pre-flop, flop and turn.

The way you can counter act some A with better kicker is with a flush but u got to hit.

So a limp... initially does two things hides ur flush... second if CO bets pre-flop it alerts u of A strong ace. I would check flop why? Cause u basically can't lose here. 57... 468 maybe an unlikely straight draw of which spade means u got a killer trap. Not scared of any over pairs either only A with better kicker.

If A10 or better kicker out there he would fear the flush draw and try scare u off. I would bet 200 like u did... to scare off limpers but not with A8 suited but if I had an AJ hoping a spade miss the turn at that point I'd nail hero allin like villain did hoping to scare out any flush draws and happy with a fold. 75%+ odds to win if spade misses river.

Hero should consider trapping here by checking... then villian and like CO did reveal they got an A by betting pre-flop and flop hoping to scare off flush draws.

84 who would call with dat especially with 2 re-raises pre-flop... u should have villian pegged as a calling station like 10 mins ago... and if he is dat is the only way he called with dat.

Aces suited are excellent trap cards its wise to check rather then bet... other reason is u scare victims away by doing so.

+ 1 :)
 
Poker Orifice

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This looks a bit on the looser site. Probably would fold this more often than not preflop as well.

As played , think you couldn´t get it in on the flop, the SB Villain played the hand calling a 3bet OOP preflop first from CO (need to remember this if you are playing later streets)

You flop a monster flop , but than you are donkleading vs the 3better? What do you want to achieve here?

After the donklead on the flop, the original 3better raises you. Here the SB villain calls (think this is often a really strong hand also combined with his PF play or you are up against a complete retard) As played now you are calling of course (odds), but you also should give both villains a range as you have toppair and the nutflushdraw there aren't to many other strong combo's in SB range than sets.

Than you donklead (if it is called that way) the turn again?????? What were you thinking there? I think you played all 3 streets (PF, flop and turn) not good.

Of course as played you can never ever folding anymore on the turn, but like Luco said, you should avoid these spots, even more if you are that bad postflop (like you played here).
pretty much this ^

Why are we donking into the raiser on the flop? What are we hoping for? What are we hoping to accomplish?
 
Poker Orifice

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You miss bet this pot. I think with A8 suited u want to limp in first. Cause a AK, AQ, AJ might over bet pre-flop, flop and turn.

The way you can counter act some A with better kicker is with a flush but u got to hit.

So a limp... initially does two things hides ur flush... second if CO bets pre-flop it alerts u of A strong ace. I would check flop why? Cause u basically can't lose here. 57... 468 maybe an unlikely straight draw of which spade means u got a killer trap. Not scared of any over pairs either only A with better kicker.

If A10 or better kicker out there he would fear the flush draw and try scare u off. I would bet 200 like u did... to scare off limpers but not with A8 suited but if I had an AJ hoping a spade miss the turn at that point I'd nail hero allin like villain did hoping to scare out any flush draws and happy with a fold. 75%+ odds to win if spade misses river.

Hero should consider trapping here by checking... then villian and like CO did reveal they got an A by betting pre-flop and flop hoping to scare off flush draws.

84 who would call with dat especially with 2 re-raises pre-flop... u should have villian pegged as a calling station like 10 mins ago... and if he is dat is the only way he called with dat.

Aces suited are excellent trap cards its wise to check rather then bet... other reason is u scare victims away by doing so.
& +2 :) (figured it was obvious)
 
duggs

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pre seems ok, c/c flop c/c turn and donk jam rivers we hit. villain has 1 combo of AA and 8 combos of AK. so we have way too many outs to ever fold.
 
MasterOfDisaster

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pre seems ok, c/c flop c/c turn and donk jam rivers we hit. villain has 1 combo of AA and 8 combos of AK. so we have way too many outs to ever fold.

Think you forget the 55 combos and 77 combos (wich I think are more often in his range how he played preflop and on the flop)
 
duggs

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Think you forget the 55 combos and 77 combos (wich I think are more often in his range how he played preflop and on the flop)

he 2x 3bet an ep open, i see no reason to include 77/55
 
MasterOfDisaster

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he 2x 3bet an ep open, i see no reason to include 77/55

That guy did fold on turn (lol)

?? Villain is the SB and is only calling preflop and on the flop ?? I really was wondering how you came on such a range. Think you totally misread the whole hand!
 
MasterOfDisaster

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Or do I miss something? Think OP did a really bad job with colouring his HH.



Full Tilt Poker - Hold'em Tournament - $20/40 Blinds - 9 Players
Hand Converter by Pokerhand.org

BTN: $4,145
Villain (SB): $5,765
BB: $1,240
UTG: $5,970
Hero (UTG+1): $4,995
MP1: $3,910
MP2: $2,145
MP3: $5,730
CO: $4,015

Pre-flop: Dealt to Hero AS 8S
(1 folds), Hero raises to $80, (3 folds), CO raises to $160, BTN calls $160, Villain calls $140, (1 folds), Hero calls $80

Flop: ($680) 5S 7S AD (4 Players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $200, CO raises to $555, (1 folds), Villain calls $555, Hero calls $355

Turn: ($2,345) 6H(3 Players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $2,345, (1 folds), Villain raises to $4,690

 
duggs

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yep messed this one up. but yea it doesnt hugely matter whether he has sets or 2pair here because we still have nut outs.
 
Beanfacekilla

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A small mistake pre (a loose open) snowballs into your whole stack. I don't hate the preflop raise but suddenly you're down the rabbit hole and before you know it you're posting on cc about it. Fold pre and avoid playing marginal hands OOP.

Not going to comment on each street but you're committed to the hand after your turn bet, can't fold now. If he has a set then some of your outs are poisoned.

This whole hand is completely avoidable though.


I agree with this. A-8 seems like a LP hand to me. After the flop, you can't really get away.
 
MasterOfDisaster

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yep messed this one up. but yea it doesnt hugely matter whether he has sets or 2pair here because we still have nut outs.

:)

Yes agree if you open this hand and of course call the small 3bet multiway preflop, that this is the best line postflop.


c/c flop c/c turn and donk jam rivers we hit.
 
Grebbsy

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pre seems ok, c/c flop c/c turn and donk jam rivers we hit. villain has 1 combo of AA and 8 combos of AK.

Apologies to have to ask, but can someone translate this into easily comprehensible terms suitable for the newcomer? I've been puzzling over it for a day or two now without being able to figure it out.
 
duggs

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C/c means check and call a bet
 
duggs

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Ignore the combos as I screwed up the action but I can expand on the terminology of need be
 
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