$3.30 NLHE MTT Bounty: Weird hand in 3.30 bounty builder

Satiivas

Satiivas

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pokerstars, $2.94 + $0.36 - Hold'em No Limit - 250/500 (80 ante) - 9 players


UTG: 6,592 (13 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 19,368 (39 bb)
MP: 45,123 (90 bb)
MP+1: 22,326 (45 bb)
LP: 13,730 (27 bb)
CO: 9,442 (19 bb)
BU: 7,863 (16 bb)
SB: 22,120 (44 bb)
BB: 15,709 (31 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,470) Hero is UTG+1 with T T
1 fold, Hero raises to 1,250, 1 fold, MP+1 calls 1,250, 5 players fold

Flop: (3,970) T 6 8 (2 players)
Hero bets 2,500, MP+1 calls 2,500

Turn: (8,970) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets 5,500, MP+1 calls 5,500

River: (19,970) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP+1 bets 12,996 (all-in), HERO???
 
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Cinhos_2000

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I honestly think you should fold there. If he goes all in on that board you're not beating his value hands, so if you call that you think he's bluffing enough to make that call profitable. If I'm not wrong you have to be good at least 25% of the time to make that call snd I don't think you are. if he had any overpair he would probably raise pre flop or at least check after you because of the draws that completed on the river, any sets and two pairs would probably think they had showdown value aswell and check after you. Now which bluffs can he have? The only ones I'd put in his range are 99, Q9s and J9s (I even think Q9s would probably fold after turn). There just aren't that many hands that would bluff you on the river in comparisson with the ones that would value bet.
 
Psyanide14

Psyanide14

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There’s a good chance you are beat there with 4 to the straight and 3 to the flush. On the other hand at these low stakes anything is possible..heck he could have 93o. You are pretty much pot committed IMO but it’s definitely a rough board. You didn’t mention how it ended. Did you fold or call?
 
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Badday94

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It's hard to say. I often took the same route as him with a board so bluffable when I missed my draws. Most of the times it works when you go all in like that on the river with such a bluffable board. He could very well have 4 5 suited for example here. He could very well have J Q or A 7 suited.

By the way the action went in this hand, with you raising all the way to the river, then a check and his shove, there is no wrong decision. You could very well fold and see another day or don't buy it and make the hero call. You can't be blamed for either.

I would make the call just by the fact that you raising preflop, flop and turn and then checking the river makes it pretty obvious you don't have the straight here, making it very easy for your opponent to turn his hand into a bluff on the river. I would have made the call. Also I would have jammed the river if I were you, I wouldn't have checked the river and give him the opportunity to bluff me and if I lose I lose, at least I'm not put in the position to make such a call. You also could have made the turn bet a bit bigger on such a straighty board. But that's just me because I prefer more aggression in these spots, I don't know if it's best, it's just what I prefer to do, maybe I'm wrong :)
 
Satiivas

Satiivas

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Thanks for the input!
What about the streets before the river? Were my bet sizes fine?
 
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Cinhos_2000

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It's hard to say. I often took the same route as him with a board so bluffable when I missed my draws. Most of the times it works when you go all in like that on the river with such a bluffable board. He could very well have 4 5 suited for example here. He could very well have J Q or A 7 suited.

By the way the action went in this hand, with you raising all the way to the river, then a check and his shove, there is no wrong decision. You could very well fold and see another day or don't buy it and make the hero call. You can't be blamed for either.

I would make the call just by the fact that you raising preflop, flop and turn and then checking the river makes it pretty obvious you don't have the straight here, making it very easy for your opponent to turn his hand into a bluff on the river. I would have made the call. Also I would have jammed the river if I were you, I wouldn't have checked the river and give him the opportunity to bluff me and if I lose I lose, at least I'm not put in the position to make such a call. You also could have made the turn bet a bit bigger on such a straighty board. But that's just me because I prefer more aggression in these spots, I don't know if it's best, it's just what I prefer to do, maybe I'm wrong :)
Why would you shove river? Top set isn't a good combo to bluff. With that much money invested I don't see him folding any better hand than hero. If he has a worse hand than he most likely will fold, thinking hero has him beat. If that's the scenario when shoving on the river, isn't it better to check river and call a shove? That way at least you're getting money from his bluffs and winning most hands that he checks. I think the EV of check calling a shove is way higher than shoving the river.
 
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fundiver199

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This is one of those situations, where you got big fat value on the flop and turn, but then one of the worst possible cards came on the river esentially turning your hand into second pair, since any random 7 now beat you, and to make matters worse, the frontdoor flushdraw also came in.

And unfortunately this card just absolutely smashes his range, especially when you have top set and block most of his top pair combos like AT or KT. And while its a obvious scare card, which would be good for him to bluff on, what exactly is he bluffing with, when all his draws either got there or paired up?

If you are trying to be balanced in his situation, its extremely tough to come up with enough bluffs, and all of them are going to be made hands like maybe J9, that flopped an OESD and rivered a no good pair. I think, its completely fair to say, that this is an underbluffed spot in micro and low stakes tournaments, so I would fold and live to fight another day.
 
Satiivas

Satiivas

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This is one of those situations, where you got big fat value on the flop and turn, but then one of the worst possible cards came on the river esentially turning your hand into second pair, since any random 7 now beat you, and to make matters worse, the frontdoor flushdraw also came in.

And unfortunately this card just absolutely smashes his range, especially when you have top set and block most of his top pair combos like AT or KT. And while its a obvious scare card, which would be good for him to bluff on, what exactly is he bluffing with, when all his draws either got there or paired up?

If you are trying to be balanced in his situation, its extremely tough to come up with enough bluffs, and all of them are going to be made hands like maybe J9, that flopped an OESD and rivered a no good pair. I think, its completely fair to say, that this is an underbluffed spot in micro and low stakes tournaments, so I would fold and live to fight another day.
Thanks, fundiver! I appreciate your input.

What do you think about the flop and turn bet sizes? Is there a reason to overbet-shove the turn, given the scary board, or are we just making too many hands we beat and/or draws fold, missing potential value doing so?
 
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fundiver199

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I think, you sized your bets very well. If stacks were shallower, then sure I would make this a 2 street hand and jam the turn on a brick like this. But here a turn jam would be 2 x the pot, and I think, you would just force a lot of hands to fold, that you want to get value from. If you are looking for an alternative line, then you could go for a check-raise on either the flop or turn. And looking at it again I actually think, a check-jam on the turn is a very sexy option here. A lot of people never even consider check-raising, when they are the preflop aggressor. And just like never donk betting thats actually kind of bad. The more you mix up your play, the more difficult you become to play against :)
 
Tracid

Tracid

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My opinion is, you're asking good questions!

We could debate the pros and cons of betting betting both more and less on the flop & turn here, my different schools of thought being milking maximum value by betting smaller or charging drawing hands a premium by betting more.

In balance (and because the draws miss far more than they hit) it's my understanding that leading about 1/3 of pot is good on these kind of flops to extract value from the draws.

To me it seems that people call too much, and too frequently, with draws so I lean towards notching it up in this kind of spot to take advantage of that.

Ultimately, we get pretty much the worst possible river going, all draws get there, and we're faced with what will often be a polarising shove.

As others have alluded, how often are they bluffing as played? Have they really floated flop & turn with air just hoping for a perfect bluff river which the preflop, flop and turn aggressor is going to check in front setting them up perfectly for the bluff?

It's possible, but, as played, in my opinion it's far more likely they got there holding something like Ac6c, Ac7c, KcQc, QcJc, Jc7c, 5c7c or 7c4c.

Dying to know if you called (my guess is you did) and if so, what was shown down.

I understand that you want to collect people's opinions on the hand before they know the outcome so, if you don't want to declare the result in the thread yet, please PM it to me asap, haha.. :laugh:

I won't mention it to anyone else.

I'm confident their holdings was one of the seven listed above (or very similar), to the tune of about $5... :biggrin:

In the same breath I wouldn't be all that surprised if they tabled air.

Please sate my curiosity now! :)
 
Satiivas

Satiivas

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Thanks a lot everybody!

Before someone explodes from curiosity: I ended up tank-calling from pure frustration. I hate to admit it, but I didn't find any reason to call the bet other than emotions. The villain showed KcJc, so Tracid- the only hand you didn't include in your list! [emoji1] It was a bad call and luckily I got punished for it.

After the hand, there was a debate between my friends and I about the turn bet sizing, hence the turn overbet-jam question, to which I didn't agree either. Although we block top pair by having top set, I feel there are still tons of hands we could get value from that could fold to a jam.
 
RafaBrewer

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this field in general no blefs. MP+1 just flat pre but they call to hit....and when this happen... they bets agressivelly. Easy fold.
 
Jon Poker

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Everything important has already been said - alot of what villans are going to show up with here are going to be nutted hands (straights or flushes) and it's just an uncomfortable spot. That being said when we check to our villans here we open the door for bluffs and if we are going to do that and the river brings them the perfect bluff card -- then we have to be willing to call off sometimes. Unless I have very specific notes on this villan, I'm not folding this river when I check to them.

The other option is a blocker bet. I often use a sizing here that bewilders players and sometimes eeks out super thin value -- I would bet 10% pot here which would be roughly 2k. What this accomplishes is since the front door flush comes in on the river - villans who complete the straight should NEVER be raising you in this spot because it's a situation where they will only get called by better (the flush). In reality we know dumb players do dumb things - but unless your villan is a sicko, they shouldn't have any raise bluffs on this river. So in a nutshell, a blocker bet, even as small as 2k should polarize your opponents raising range to strong flushes only -- so if they do raise you, it's an easy fold and we just play out the rest of our short stack.

Edit:: I would also like to add, that sometimes I use that 10% blocker bet when I do have the nuts because sometimes it will induce bad players to make ridiculous raises on rivers. When they just call you lose a little bit of value, but when they raise/jam on you - its the sweetest feeling ever! Not to mention this also gives you some balance in your ranges when you do make this sort of play.
 
Tracid

Tracid

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Thanks a lot everybody!

Before someone explodes from curiosity: I ended up tank-calling from pure frustration. I hate to admit it, but I didn't find any reason to call the bet other than emotions. The villain showed KcJc, so Tracid- the only hand you didn't include in your list! [emoji1] It was a bad call and luckily I got punished for it.

After the hand, there was a debate between my friends and I about the turn bet sizing, hence the turn overbet-jam question, to which I didn't agree either. Although we block top pair by having top set, I feel there are still tons of hands we could get value from that could fold to a jam.
Not going to lie, I was on the verge of imploding or exploding with curiousity, it could've gone either way... :laugh:

That's a really frustrating eventuality and I empathise with calling out of pure annoyance. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you put them on the flush at the time too.

It's definitely worth investing some thought and effort into solving the emotional response (ahead of time) which drives us to call when we know we're beat... :wink:


Personally, I have a few 'default' strategies for spots like the one in your OP. The circumstances, opponent and flop texture usually dictate which approach is used but I also trust my gut & intuition enough to factor them into the equation too.

KcJc huh...

Seems fair to me that calling it down through the streets with air + Rookie flush draw should get rewarded on the river! :rolleyes:

It's even more annoying if you over-bet the flop & turn, pricing out the draw, and they still donk it down and bink, haha..

Ultimately whichever kind of line we take, we love these situations because the draws miss more than they hit and we also have a fair chance of boating too.

Ideally though we have to learn to get away when the draws get there, we don't fill up, they pull the trigger and we don't think they're bluffing.

Great thread, thanks for posting the hand! :icon_thum
 
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