$3.30 NLHE MTT: $$3.30 NLHE MTT: Pot controlling this turn?

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fundiver199

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Any reasoning behind limping on BTN rather than min-raising? The fact, its a limped pot, matters for postflop, because it creates a deeper SPR, and their ranges can be very wide. For this reason I definitely think, you need to bet the turn for value/protection. Its fine then to check back river on a bad card like this.
 
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300HPGOD

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Pretty much what Fundiver said. You need to be opening here as it will be folded to you a lot and then you dont have to worry about post flop play. I think a simple min raise here will work just fine and get folds a decent amount of the time unless there is something that I dont know about SB or BB. As played the bet on the flop is good, could have went smaller if you want to but I dont mind half pot here. The turn you need to be betting for 2 reasons. One is to protect your equity against a flush draw and to get value from them since if they miss on the river they will not call your bet (they might bluff if miss but they would do that as well if you bet the turn). Second reason for betting the turn is you can get value from smaller Kx hands, Qx hands and some pocket pair hands that might get sticky (something like 6s or 7s that might just call pre). Any way you look at it you are missing value on the turn. If they check raise you there its probably rarely a bluff and if they have a hand to do that they were going to put you to the test on the river anyway. Also one other note is that betting the turn will usually make villain more likely to check to you on the river so betting the turn makes our river play easier as well.
 
ZenGreen

ZenGreen

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UGGG I just want to jam on every limper from the btn with hands as good as KT and I bet youre folding to any bet OTR.

BET PF - B - B - X/C though river probably checks thru if he calls 2nd pair on 2 streets

really on your stack you should be all in OTT if not PRE!!!!! (ripping 20 thru to pick up 3 isnt so bad either)


edit - On this ackward size stack, Im just jamming 21bb thru here.
 
7CardKillR

7CardKillR

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9646c3db74661855856eafc5882c2459.png

https://gyazo.com/9646c3db74661855856eafc5882c2459

GTO limps 25% in this spot and is indifferent to raising or limping on this stack so to thwart a auto profit jam from a short stack in the SB I limp the 25%. Higher SPR benefits the Ip player and I surely do not wish to incentivize the spazzy SB to claim a highly polarized range vs a hand as weak as KTo
 
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7CardKillR

7CardKillR

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The turn you need to be betting for 2 reasons. One is to protect your equity against a flush draw and to get value from them since if they miss on the river they will not call your bet (they might bluff if miss but they would do that as well if you bet the turn). Second reason for betting the turn is you can get value from smaller Kx hands, Qx hands and some pocket pair hands that might get sticky (something like 6s or 7s that might just call pre). Any way you look at it you are missing value on the turn. If they check raise you there its probably rarely a bluff and if they have a hand to do that they were going to put you to the test on the river anyway. Also one other note is that betting the turn will usually make villain more likely to check to you on the river so betting the turn makes our river play easier as well.

Yes I agree with this line of thinking Thanks for your input.
 
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fundiver199

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9646c3db74661855856eafc5882c2459.png

https://gyazo.com/9646c3db74661855856eafc5882c2459

GTO limps 25% in this spot and is indifferent to raising or limping on this stack so to thwart a auto profit jam from a short stack in the SB I limp the 25%. Higher SPR benefits the Ip player and I surely do not wish to incentivize the spazzy SB to claim a highly polarized range vs a hand as weak as KTo

The problem with a GTO strategy like this, which uses both a jamming range, a min-raising range and a limping range is, that its so complicated, that no humans are going to be able to actually implement it in real time. I also think, its massively unnessesary in a 3,3$ tournament, because your opponents are not going to be playing anywhere near perfect.

The theoretical advantage, which a computer gains from playing like this is, that its allowed to partially limp hands like Q3s or K7o, because it protects its limping range by also partially limping AA, JJ and AQ. But I think, for the vast majority of us, its completely fine to just fold those marginal hands and then min-raise everything, we want to play.

I think, the average micro player probably dont defend his blinds enough in a spot like this, because they are uncomfortable playing out of position, and they certainly dont rejam enough. Which then takes away a lot of the advantage of limping. That being said limping is certainly +EV, so its not terrible. You just need to understand, that you are giving up fold equity in return for not getting jammed on as often, and how postflop change as a result of the SPR and the wider preflop ranges.
 
Jon Poker

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Pot controlling for what?? The turn card is not a scare card so I'm not sure why we are checking back turn here unless the idea would want to make it look like a failed cbet attempt - the problem is we didnt open our holding on the BTN so its not even a cbet, but rather just a standardized flop bet here. Given the preflop action I think most villans in the blinds are iso raising KQ+ to a btn limp here so maaaaybe we are up against KJ at worst? Unlikely since i would imagine, if villan flopped so strong and only elected to check-call rather than check-raise us for value, then we are just losing money in this pot regardless.

If we are talking GTO and you want to stay balanced, you limping your entire range here? AQ? AA? KK? - if not then you are deviating from your planned perspective and likely only limping the mediocre strength combos vs all of your combos - thus you will be unbalanced and NOT playing an optimal strategy.

I also agree with fundiver on this one -- in a $3.30 game, this strategy system is totally unnecessary and you will make much more money exploiting terrible players rather than trying to play a high level GTO strategy - just makes our lives to complicated at a level where there is no need to do so just yet.

Anyhow, after all that rambling....

Flop top pair and bet 1/2 pot - id go somewhere along the sizings of 1/3 pot - 40% pot because in a limped pot we need our villans to continue with worse and the larger we bet the harder it is for our villans to continue.

The turn card is NOT a scare card and so we should definitely be barreling twice here to get value from Qx and worse Kx. If you do check here with conscious idea in mind that you are checking to make it seem like a failed stab at the pot - then i am fine with this idea since we are only likely to get 1 or 2 streets from Qx anyhow - but if we are checking to "pot control" a safe turn card when we should be value betting...then we are leaving money on the table and are effectively hindering our ability to chip up and make a deep run.

As the turn checks through when river checks to us villan should always be value betting 2 pair or better and their strong Kx - so this is a clear value bet spot for about 60% pot. If we are going to limp KT on the button, flop top pair on a safe board and then NOT go for value, then whats the point of playing the hand?
 
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fundiver199

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I am not familiar with that HUD, but I assume, his stats are VPIP 20 / PFR 19 / 3-bet 22 over 65 hands. 3-bet 22 is of course very high, but when 3-bet is higher than PFR, the number is usually not real, and 65 hands is a very small sample for 3-bet. One of the biggest traps of using a HUD is insignificant sample size. In this case his 3-bet is probably 4 times out of 18 opportunities or maybe 5 out of 23. And of course its entirely possible, he just picked up some good 3-betting hands 4-5 times.

So these are not HUD-data, that would make me want to adjust against him in any way. I would min-raise KTo from BTN and fold, if either player rejam or 3-bet in some way. And its fine to fold to some rejams. Yes you lose 2BB, when you do it, but you also win 2,5BB, when you pick up the blinds and antes uncontested. And you are in a decent spot, if big blind defends by just calling, since you then have position and a decent hand. If limping was due to these HUD-stats, then its a bad read of data. Not the end of the world, but if you are deeper and start to spazz 4-bet because of high 3-bet over a small sample, that is going to be an issue.
 
jaworek1405

jaworek1405

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Hello, if we have good image at the table and we didn't raise too much hands before that situation we can try to raise pre flop on 20bb in stack. I agree with guys who think that on the turn we should bet for value, because it seems that opponent from the small has not too strong hand. If you didn't bet the turn for value you should bet for value on the river, because it seems that opponent doesn't have a top pair. If he would have top pair he should bet on the river for value after your check on the turn. So we should bet something for value on the turn or on the river. GL :)
 
7CardKillR

7CardKillR

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Yeah I chatted briefly with Acevedo about the PF spot and he tended to agree with the open raise as a matter of course. Due to several conditions and tendencies. I intend to bring it up with Laplante and hope to get a more in detail opinion about a LP limping range in this spot vis a vis stack size. I feel its probably about balancing a trapping range and getting improper folds from the SB. (Ace touches on this concept in chapter 12 of his book although I cant bring up the exact page and paragraph at this time) I do appreciate all the input
 
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