$3.3 NLHE MTT Bounty: ITM: AK - 3bet or shove?

1sunchin

1sunchin

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pokerstars, $2.94 + $0.36 - Hold'em No Limit - 600/1,200 (180 ante) - 8 players

USCATU79 (UTG): 43,862 (37 bb)
PitPoker0070 (UTG+1): 23,423 (20 bb)
bigals6868 (MP): 53,688 (45 bb)
mido1986777 (MP+1): 71,485 (60 bb)
Merida0202 (CO): 83,148 (69 bb)
GeoCBA (BU): 75,561 (63 bb)
fio bao (SB): 66,614 (56 bb)
1numismat (BB): 68,565 (57 bb)

Pre-Flop: (3,240) Hero (1numismat) is BB with A♣ K♠
2 players fold, bigals6868 (MP) raises to 2,400, 2 players fold, GeoCBA (BU) calls 2,400, fio bao (SB) calls 1,800, 1numismat (BB) - ?
 
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300HPGOD

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I would never shove this on this stack depth as there are bigger stacks then ours already in the hand so we have the effective stack (from our perspective anyway) of 57 BBs which is way too deep to jam AK or probably any hand for that matter since if we had a made monster here we would not want to jam where villains would then fold their 99 ish possible hands.

The it comes down to 3 betting or calling. Imo, to 3 bet here you need to know the villains tendencies and how often they will fold to a raise. If you dont believe you can get it down to heads up here I believe calling is the best route. If you think you can get it to heads up by raising to 12 BBs then 3 betting is probably better. The problem we have here is that if we go larger than 12 BBs we get into that zone of near betting 25% of our stack which usually means jamming is better. However, I revert back to I dont like jamming 57 BBs with what is Ace high here. I would go with a passive route here and call and then depending on villains post flop call frequencies, we can make the pot large post flop when we want to and then also fold cheaply when we dont hit the flop. Its a passive play but you just cant raise to 8 BBs here hoping to get a lot of folds. You have to go large and in doing so you put in so much of your stack that with that raise and any c bet you are close to if not committing yourself. I would rather see a cheap flop here and go from there.

If we were shorter like in the 30 BB range we could just jam it in and if we were deeper at more like 100 BBs then we could 3 bet easier but this stack to me just seems like it is better for us to just call and play post flop even if it is out of position. One less caller would make 3 betting much easier as the amount of the 3 bet would be less but already with 3 callers, I would just close the action and see a flop.
 
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fundiver199

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Personally I like jamming here. There is already 8BB in the middle to fight for, you are out of position against two of the three opponents, and if someone gives you action, AK is rarely far behind, and you have two of them covered, so that you can win their bounty. So this might not be particularly balanced, but I am jamming here with AK and 3-betting small with KK and AA.
 
1sunchin

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PokerStars, $2.94 + $0.36 - Hold'em No Limit - 600/1,200 (180 ante) - 8 players

USCATU79 (UTG): 43,862 (37 bb)
PitPoker0070 (UTG+1): 23,423 (20 bb)
bigals6868 (MP): 53,688 (45 bb)
mido1986777 (MP+1): 71,485 (60 bb)
Merida0202 (CO): 83,148 (69 bb)
GeoCBA (BU): 75,561 (63 bb)
fio bao (SB): 66,614 (56 bb)
1numismat (BB): 68,565 (57 bb)

Pre-Flop: (3,240) Hero (1numismat) is BB with A♣ K♠
2 players fold, bigals6868 (MP) raises to 2,400, 2 players fold, GeoCBA (BU) calls 2,400, fio bao (SB) calls 1,800, 1numismat (BB) - ?
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/724Zh7qhD
 
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fundiver199

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I would never shove this on this stack depth as there are bigger stacks then ours already in the hand so we have the effective stack (from our perspective anyway) of 57 BBs which is way too deep to jam AK or probably any hand for that matter since if we had a made monster here we would not want to jam where villains would then fold their 99 ish possible hands.

Its true, that we are the effective stack with 57BB. But how often does BTN or SB have a hand strong enough to call us, if we jam? 99% of the time they are just in there trying to setmine, or they have some kind of suited connector or decent broadway, which looked to good to fold, but was not good enough to 3-bet. So the only player in this hand, that really matter, is MP, and against him we are 45BB deep.

Admittedly this is still very deep, and there are probably not many hands other than exactly AK, we would want to jam for 45BB in this situation. But does this really matter? Even if we showed them AK after jamming, what exactly are they going to do about it? They still cant call us with their QJs or their 55, especially not those, who still have people left to act behind them.

Occationally we will run into AA or KK, and thats going to suck. But if we 3-bet small, we are still not folding AK to a 4-bet with these stack sizes, so running AK into KK or AA is just a cooler. And if we get called by any other hand, its not a bad situation for us, especially not with some dead money in the pot and bounties to fight for. The value of building a big stack is also larger in a PKO, because it allow us to better contend for bounties in future hands.

I would go with a passive route here and call and then depending on villains post flop call frequencies, we can make the pot large post flop when we want to and then also fold cheaply when we dont hit the flop.

The issue with calling is, that AK dont play particularly well in multiway pots. Yes we keep some hands in, that we kicker dominate, and thats great, when the flop comes K73, and someone else has KQ or KJs. But its not so great, when they have 77 or 33, and we need to remember, that BTN and especially SB will often have setmine heavy ranges. If we call, the SPR will be around 5-6, and thats right in that grey zone, where it can be really difficult to figure out, what to do with a TPTK type of hand.
 
rock0001

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taking into account that you had a deep stack 3 betting might be the best play here however i dont think shoving is bad either. i would most likely make a big 3 bet like 10000 or 12000 to avoid facing that many players postflop. 1 or 2 max is optimal with a strong hand like ak however against 3 villains you hand loses some value but it still plays very well postflop when you hit an ace or king on a dry flop.
 
dallam

dallam

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I'm really confident to saying here: shove.

When already 3 in it, there's no way all of them gonna fold no matter how big you 3bet. Which means, you will see the flop min. with 1 opponent, and even likely to be out of position. Its very important to see here, how easy and often(!) AKo will cause us trouble by simply making it too safe.

Stacks are maybe deep but think about how many times we force AK against pocket pairs, or pocket pairs against AK. For 8bbs in this case always all the time you only have to avoid MP's call cause others can't call you. And thats because stacks are deep. :) It backfires only them.

Even bubble is with you. This is just pure position playing.
 
eetenor

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PokerStars, $2.94 + $0.36 - Hold'em No Limit - 600/1,200 (180 ante) - 8 players

USCATU79 (UTG): 43,862 (37 bb)
PitPoker0070 (UTG+1): 23,423 (20 bb)
bigals6868 (MP): 53,688 (45 bb)
mido1986777 (MP+1): 71,485 (60 bb)
Merida0202 (CO): 83,148 (69 bb)
GeoCBA (BU): 75,561 (63 bb)
fio bao (SB): 66,614 (56 bb)
1numismat (BB): 68,565 (57 bb)

Pre-Flop: (3,240) Hero (1numismat) is BB with A♣ K♠
2 players fold, bigals6868 (MP) raises to 2,400, 2 players fold, GeoCBA (BU) calls 2,400, fio bao (SB) calls 1,800, 1numismat (BB) - ?


Thank you for posting

There is some table data that will help you to decide to 3 bet- shove or flat

The data you want will tell you if the pot will go multi way if you make it 10-12k?
How can we know?
We start with bigal..... have they raise called before? If they have done so frequently then the other 2 V may overcall as well even for 9k more. We want to estimate how often that will be. We do that from past experiences in PKO's were we took notes on player pool tendencies.

If the answer is 12k still goes multiway often then we shove or flat. Why?
equity realization. If we are going to use raw equity % then we are not making a mistake shoving vs V calling ranges and the shove gains fold equity.

Flatting is also viable if we have a post flop skill advantage as it is only 1bb to call.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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QA77

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Shoving is ok but then what would you put in your shoving range? If you have TT or JJ, raising would be a better option imo.

So I think raising to around 12k would be my play. Then play from there. If you had around 30bb, I would shove.
 
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