$3.25 SnG PS

[arahel_jazz]

Early... Table playing pretty tight. My first venture into $3 land.
Villan had been stacked by a straight a few hands earlier.

Comments needed on the river - what would be the best here?

pokerstars Game #17634545604: Tournament #89416490, $3.00+$0.25 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/05/23 - 13:00:00 (ET)
Table '89416490 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: OB_Susan (1385 in chips)
Seat 3: bigkenny88 (1420 in chips)
Seat 4: supvince (2555 in chips)
Seat 5: thetbone22 (900 in chips)
Seat 6: masterbob21 (1945 in chips)
Seat 7: babuabe (1455 in chips)
Seat 8: ATACANTOS (1440 in chips)
Seat 9: arahel_jazz (1275 in chips)
bigkenny88: posts small blind 15
supvince: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to arahel_jazz [Ac Td]
thetbone22: calls 30
masterbob21: folds
babuabe: calls 30
ATACANTOS: calls 30
arahel_jazz: calls 30
OB_Susan: folds
bigkenny88: calls 15
supvince: checks
*** FLOP *** [As Tc 9c]
bigkenny88: checks
supvince: checks
thetbone22: checks
babuabe: checks
ATACANTOS: checks
arahel_jazz: bets 90
bigkenny88: folds
supvince: calls 90
thetbone22: folds
babuabe: folds
ATACANTOS: folds
*** TURN *** [As Tc 9c] [8s]
supvince: checks
arahel_jazz: bets 180
supvince: calls 180
*** RIVER *** [As Tc 9c 8s] [8c]
supvince: checks
arahel_jazz: ?????


Do I just check behind with the flush draw and a paired board? Or, do I put in a value bet on the order of $300 or so?

 

[Genso Hikki]

This is a tough one. It's possible he might be baiting you into a bet so he can check raise with a monster, but here I think I do a little value bet to see where I am. If he pushes back at me I think I have to fold.

 

[feitr]

I'd check behind. I guess you get a call out of an A but all the draws are potentially completed, and if he had the lower end of the OESD he runnered trips.

@ Genso I don't see the logic in not taking a free check if you are going to laydown 2 pair if he reraises you. You have incredible showdown value so i don't see why you would potentially risk that in the hopes he has called you down with an ace. And check calling the entire way would be very strange for an ace.

I'd bump this preflop as well.

 

[feitr]

He obviously isn't sticking around after the flop to hit trip 8s, but if he had 87 he would be sticking around for the lower end of OESD. If he had the higher end of the OESD he got it on the turn. Flush would have come on the river.

If you had reads he was a bit of a calling station then sure value bet it, but you are only getting a call out of an Ace or if he is terrible then something like QT chasing a gutshot after pairing on the flop. Granted, many times there is absolutely no need to put somebody on a draw, but you limped into a 6 way pot so the chance that somebody was on a draw is very very likely. And the only draw that could have possibly "missed" was a gutshot on the flop, because QJ makes the straight and 87 makes trips and a club draw would have been completed.

I just think that checking is safer without knowing how the villain plays his hands yet.

 

[ABorges]

It's so read dependent it's not even funny. What does he check-call the flop and turn with? Your bet was a little too small to get information in a draw heavy board like this, so against the typical micro stakes player, I'd say he'd call the with an A, a T, a 9, any open ended straight draw, any flush draw and even possibly a gutshot or even an underpair (believe me, I've seen it so many times I just don't question it anymore).

Now one of the straight card comes on the turn, he checks, you bet half the pot again and he calls. My experience says beginners like your opponents probably are fold a lot of their made hands called with on the flop, so we'll rule out a pair of T's, a pair of 9's and those long shot draws and other donkish hands. That means his new range is any two clubs, the made straight with QJ that he might slowplay with, a pair of A's, or 87, calling with a pair and the low end of the flush draw.

Now the river comes as bad as it could. Not only it completes the flush draw, it also pairs the 8 to give him the eventual trips with 87... thing is, he checks, and this could mean a lot of things. I'd say he'd very likely bet with QJ for value, probably bet with the flush with the possibility of check-raising, check-call with a stubborn ace, and trips could really go either bet for value or check-call. That's why it's so read dependent, there are a lot of probably's along the way. You have to know the opponent to know what he does with each hand.

With that said and no reads, I'm pretty certain I check here. It's early in the tournament, the pot is already as big as your hand's strength and survival is of more importance right now than a bigger stack. Oh, and I'd usually fold ATo early in a SnG in a multi way pot... it's just not worth it. I bet you checked and he turned over something like 55?

 

[switch0723]

wow, quite a bit of discussion here, i may need to rethink what i was going to say since i thought this was a basic bet/fold river.

We bet to get value from a worse ace and maybe a ten, then fold if re raised, i just don't like the idea of checking behind with top 2 when last to act on river

Also raise or fold pre, a,t is a tough hand to play multiway so thin the field pre or dump it. Also bet more on flop (about 120) then bet more on turn (about 240)

 

[Gesshoo]

Check.

Personally, I'd probably have bet a bit more on the turn than half the pot, but after 88, a 3rd club, possible str8 draw, I'd check. You can't win much more by betting, and if you bet and get raised, say, 900 - you have a problem and could be out....so, to me, the best play is to check and expect/hope to win 720 from the pot.

 

[feitr]

um ok my second post looks stupid because the person to which i was responding deleted their post.

I dind't really look that much at bet sizing the first time around, but yea you should have bet alot more on the flop and on the turn. With possible straight/flush draw on the flop there is no point making small bets here. A half pot bet gives odds to draw to almost anything.

I think it is probably tempting to bet the river just because you missed out on value on the earlier streets, but unless you have reads telling you that villain is a calling station or is not going to check the river with a big hand then checking is the safest route imo. I'd definitely value bet this vs some players and check everytime vs others. At 3.25 SnGs checking the river after hitting a draw to try and induce somebody who has bet all streets to bet again on the river isn't unusual from what i remember.

 

[arahel_jazz]

Good discussion all. Thanks for the info. Now that I go back and look at the hand, I see where a stronger pre-flop may have been better.

I've been burned so many times by overplaying A10 pre-flop, I don't consider it to be a strong enough hand to 3 or 4 bet even in the cutoff seat. With so many limpers pre-flop, in micro stakes, I've found it to be an invitation for someone to just push into a family pot if you re-raise without a really strong hand.

Unfortunately (for him) the worst of the worst is shown... I should have paid attention to his first straight draw that stacked him. He tried it again and drew a blank on the river.

If I would have bet into him, he probably would have folded anyway.


*** RIVER *** [As Tc 9c 8s] [8c]
supvince: checks
arahel_jazz: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
supvince: shows [Jc 5h] (a pair of Eights)
arahel_jazz: shows [Ac Td] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
arahel_jazz collected 720 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 720 | Rake 0
Board [As Tc 9c 8s 8c]
Seat 2: OB_Susan (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: bigkenny88 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: supvince (big blind) showed [Jc 5h] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 5: thetbone22 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: masterbob21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: babuabe folded on the Flop
Seat 8: ATACANTOS folded on the Flop
Seat 9: arahel_jazz showed [Ac Td] and won (720) with two pair, Aces and Tens

 

[feitr]

lol what a donk. Calling the flop with a runner runner straight draw ...

This is why PStars low stake SnGs are so good to play.

 

[Dwilius]

I'd check everytime there. Only hoping to get a value bet called by an ace and if he had an ace with a kicker he would probably already raised. If you bet out he has to realize any draw you could have been on has hit and at best he's calling to chop. You have a decent amount left to play with if you check and you're beat. You'll be in bad shape if you bet and lose.