$25 NLHE MTT: PS MICOOP 10L: How would you play JS in this position?

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Axmanace

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I am looking to improve my game <relatively new to poker> and wondering what you all would do in this situation.

I feel like my mistake was not to push on the flop (regardless of the result). My understanding of the card-chat 30-day course was a C-Bet was a good spot to semi-bluff with nut flush draw and gut shot straight draw; however, it pot committed me so I'm thinking it was a mistake not just to push anyways.

Anyone that would have just checked-called in this situation? Was I too aggressive?

Thanks for the feedback!


pokerstars, $22.75 + $2.25 - Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (40 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG (Hero): 22,320 (74 bb)
UTG+1: 26,160 (87 bb)
MP: 5,990 (20 bb)
MP+1: 25,770 (86 bb)
LP: 22,700 (76 bb)
CO: 43,685 (146 bb)
BU: 30,485 (102 bb)
SB: 22,910 (76 bb)
BB: 12,268 (41 bb)

Pre-Flop: (810) Hero is UTG with J A
Hero raises to 1,200, 1 fold, MP 3-bets to 5,950 (all-in), 3 players fold, BTN calls 5,950, 2 players fold, Hero calls 4,750

Flop: (18,660) T T 3 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets 9,330, BTN calls 9,330

Turn: (37,320) K (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, BTN bets 15,165 (all-in), Hero calls 7,000 (all-in)

River: (51,320) K (3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: 51,320

Showdown:
BU shows J J (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 51%, Flop: 51%, Turn: 62%, River: 100%)

UTG (Hero) shows J A (two pair, Kings and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 29%, Flop: 41%, Turn: 33%, River: 0%)

MP shows 4 4 (two pair, Kings and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 20%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

BU wins 51,320
 
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Axmanace

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Not letting me edit / update main post.
Some additional information: Would have folded had I gotten 4betted (any amount).

Did not put my opponent on TT+ for this hand. Maybe that was a mistake?
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
You make a very large 4BB open, and this is certainly not something, you want to be doing in a mid stakes game, where most of your opponents are going to be competent players. Most stacks were still 50BB or more, so you can go up to 3BB but nothing more than that, and good players might even use smaller sizing like 2,5BB.

Your oversized raise obviously matter, when you get 3-bet, because now you gave yourself a better price to call. And maybe if it had folded to you, this would in fact be a crying call and just look to gamble it up for 20BB. Hope he has a hand like the one, he had, where you are "flipping".

But when BTN has cold called the 20BB jam, AJs becomes a snap fold. He cant afford to call light, when he still have you left to act behind him, and especially not when you opened UTG. His range is probably something like JJ-AA and AK, and against that kind of range you are just totally smoked. You also dont have any fold equity, so the only good option left now is to let it go and take the small preflop loss. Remember that you still get to see the hands, so if BTN did in fact do something crazy, you can take a note on it and come after him later.

Postflop
You got kind of bailed out by flopping the nut flushdraw, and with just a pot sized bet left, I guess, I simply move all in on the flop. I want to give BTN any chance to fold, so that I dont have to risk more than 20BB in the hand. And if he does make the call, its not the end of the world, since it will normally be JJ-AA, and against that range you have 9-12 outs.
 
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Axmanace

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Preflop
You make a very large 4BB open, and this is certainly not something, you want to be doing in a mid stakes game, where most of your opponents are going to be competent players. Most stacks were still 50BB or more, so you can go up to 3BB but nothing more than that, and good players might even use smaller sizing like 2,5BB.

Your oversized raise obviously matter, when you get 3-bet, because now you gave yourself a better price to call. And maybe if it had folded to you, this would in fact be a crying call and just look to gamble it up for 20BB. Hope he has a hand like the one, he had, where you are "flipping".

But when BTN has cold called the 20BB jam, AJs becomes a snap fold. He cant afford to call light, when he still have you left to act behind him, and especially not when you opened UTG. His range is probably something like JJ-AA and AK, and against that kind of range you are just totally smoked. You also dont have any fold equity, so the only good option left now is to let it go and take the small preflop loss. Remember that you still get to see the hands, so if BTN did in fact do something crazy, you can take a note on it and come after him later.

Postflop
You got kind of bailed out by flopping the nut flushdraw, and with just a pot sized bet left, I guess, I simply move all in on the flop. I want to give BTN any chance to fold, so that I dont have to risk more than 20BB in the hand. And if he does make the call, its not the end of the world, since it will normally be JJ-AA, and against that range you have 9-12 outs.


A few questions -

1) I typically vary my raises by 2-5 BB depending on positioning. UTG I tend to raise more aggressively. Should I be doing the opposite?

2). Let’s assume I only raised 2-3 BB but the all in still occurred. Can I still fold in that spot? Or am I incentivized to call due to effective pot odds (at least till flop)?

I understand pot odds are not favorable, but tryin to learn when and when not to take into account effective odds so appreciate your insight!
 
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fundiver199

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1) Its very outdated strategy to raise big from early position. This is not the result, solvers have arrived with at all. Maybe you can get away with doing it in very soft games, where people still call to much and dont 3-bet enough, if you also tighten your range a bit. But this is a mid-stakes tournament, so you definitely want to take more of a GTO approach here in general, and that means using a smaller size than 4BB from all positions.

2) If you open to 2,5BB or 3BB, then AJs is an even easier fold. You are getting bad odds, and you are not even doing great againt the range, MP is supposed to be jamming with. 44 is actually a bit to wide for him, so maybe he was on tilt or wanted to bust, so he could reenter and play with a bigger stack.
 
jaworek1405

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Hello, I agree in the large part with fundiver. At the beginning of the tournament big raise, bigger than 2-3bb make a sense, because opponents are very deep. When medium stacks at the tables are about 20-40bb we should raise 2-3x. Every raise should have the same size, because players can read that you raise 3-4x strong hands or less than 3x with weaker hands. As played - I think that call allin against two players with AJs is a little mistake, we can have problems with this hand on the flop. So I prefer fold pre flop AJs, wait on better situations and I gather informations about my opponents. GL :)
 
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Axmanace

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1) Its very outdated strategy to raise big from early position. This is not the result, solvers have arrived with at all. Maybe you can get away with doing it in very soft games, where people still call to much and dont 3-bet enough, if you also tighten your range a bit. But this is a mid-stakes tournament, so you definitely want to take more of a GTO approach here in general, and that means using a smaller size than 4BB from all positions.

2) If you open to 2,5BB or 3BB, then AJs is an even easier fold. You are getting bad odds, and you are not even doing great againt the range, MP is supposed to be jamming with. 44 is actually a bit to wide for him, so maybe he was on tilt or wanted to bust, so he could reenter and play with a bigger stack.


Does it change the equation if I have a read that MP is playing super loose?

His previous hands were all way too loose giving GTO. Was expecting I was the favorite to win between me and him. It was the button player that was the problem.

The MP player had previously risen super aggressively preflop (more than 10 BB) with horrible hands at this stage of the tourney (like QTs)
 
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fundiver199

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Does it change the equation if I have a read that MP is playing super loose?

It would, if it was only MP in the hand. Thats a way different situation even just because of the fact, you are then only risking his 20BB. It would also be a little different, if it was a bounty tournament, because that creates a very different dynamic. But in this particular situation, where BTN has called, and there is no bounty to play for, I think, AJs is a very easy fold.
 
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Axmanace

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It would, if it was only MP in the hand. Thats a way different situation even just because of the fact, you are then only risking his 20BB. It would also be a little different, if it was a bounty tournament, because that creates a very different dynamic. But in this particular situation, where BTN has called, and there is no bounty to play for, I think, AJs is a very easy fold.


That makes sense. Don’t risk getting into a bad situation
 
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