$.25 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Is this a cooler or did I make a bad decision? Or both?

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tzuriel

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$.25 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Is this a cooler or did I make a bad decision? Or both?

Villain has been limping all day with no PF raises. I didn't expect a call here and when I did, I couldn't put him on a range too easily. After the flop, I didn't think he had a K since he didn't raise and with another K on the turn, I was certain my 4 was good here. A 4 on the River looked like my gin card. But alas. So should I fold Pre here? When the board pairs twice should I just check fold?

FYI, I ran a bluff a couple hands later on in this tourney into AA that thoroughly crippled me and I only ended up min-cashing. I didn't feel like I was tilting but maybe this hand took its toll!

NL Holdem $0.25+$0.02 (1400.00BB)
UTG ($30785)
MP ($80685)
HJ ($45225)
HERO ($160011)
BTN ($55493)
SB ($84463)
BB ($67484)

Dealt to Hero: 4 A

UTG Calls $1400, MP Calls $1400, HJ Folds, HERO Raises To $3675, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, UTG Folds, MP Calls $2100

Hero SPR on Flop: [6.57 effective]
Flop ($11725): 9 K 4
MP Checks, HERO Bets $8208 (Rem. Stack: $148128), MP Calls $8208 (Rem. Stack: $68802)

Turn ($28141): 9 K 4 K
MP Checks, HERO Bets $12663 (Rem. Stack: $135465), MP Calls $12663 (Rem. Stack: $56139)

River ($53467): 9 K 4 K 4
MP Bets $56139 (allin), HERO Calls $56139 (Rem. Stack: $79326)

MP shows: A K

MP wins: $165745
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
I love isolating limpers, but there is some merit to limping behind here, because the first limper is rather short. And if you are going to isolate, it needs to be much bigger. You say, you were not expecting a call, but you went incredibly small, so its almost a miracle, you ended up with only one caller. Normally with your sizing this would end up as a 4-5 way pot with both limpers calling and often someone behind calling as well.

Flop
You flopped bottom pair with a BDFD, and now you can either check behind or go for a small bet. Your hand is not strong enough to go for a big bet, because then you condense his range in an unfavourable way. If you bet, 4.000 to 5.000 chips is enough.

Turn
Front door flush came in, and now you definitly need to check behind and then make a decision on the river. You are playing, like you had AK and not A4. Bottom pair is not a multistreet valuebet, and especially not when an obvious draw comes in. There is also no point in bluffing with a hand, that has showdown value and might be drawing dead already to KX.

River
You improved to a full house, and now he donk jam. He is clearly representing a full house, and when you have a 4 in your hand, its way more likely, he has a K. Does it make sense, that he would play a K this way? I think so. You certainly cannot exclude KX from a limping range. Maybe we dont expect to see AK, but a lot of other KX combos can be in a limp-calling range. There is 8 combos of KQ, 8 KJ, 8 KT, 8 K9 etc.

It also makes sense, that KX would check-call the turn, because he is worried about the flush. Or maybe he have a bad kicker and is somewhat worried, you have him outkicked. The river card however removes all those worried, because now any KX only lose to quad 4`s, which is extremely unlikely. So he moves all in to not allow you to check back a worse hand.

So basically he either has a K or a bluff like a busted gutshot draw such as QJ/QT/JT. Its a slight overbet, and he is risking his entire stack. I tend to feel, that the population is not bluffing 35% of the time in this situation, so I would have folded and saved my chips for another spot.

Conclusion
You made not one but multible rather bad decisions in this hand. The preflop isolation size is bad, and maybe just limp behind in this particular situation, even though its difficult for me to say that, since I love isolating limpers. On the flop you bet to much with a marginal made hand. On the turn you should definitely not bet.

And then finally on the river I dont love calling either, when you only beat a bluff, and its quite likely, he can have value and play it this way. The main mistake however was building such a large pot on the flop and turn with a marginal made hand. If the pot had been like 20.000 rather than 56.000, its much eaiser to fold to a jam. Or he makes a smaller bet, and you lose much less, if you hero call.
 
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tzuriel

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Yeah. I really played this one badly and it I let it affect my play in future hands. Still learning. Thanks for your on-target analysis.
 
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fundiver199

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Yeah. I really played this one badly and it I let it affect my play in future hands. Still learning. Thanks for your on-target analysis.

You are welcome. And dont let a hand like this put you down. The whole reason, why we start out with something like 25c tournaments, are so that mistakes like this are less expensive, than they would be later on, when we have moved up :)
 
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tzuriel

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You are welcome. And dont let a hand like this put you down. The whole reason, why we start out with something like 25c tournaments, are so that mistakes like this are less expensive, than they would be later on, when we have moved up :)


Absolutely! I appreciate the encouragement. :)
 
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kkonicke

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I mostly agree with fundiver here. I really don't hate the preflop decision to isolate, but you want to make a bigger bet. I usually will raise 1 bb more than I otherwise would per limper. So I personally would go 3.5x bb on the raise which will probably push out a lot of the middling hands he would limp with.

On the flop, a 4 isn't much but I still like betting it as you have a range advantage. The calling range for villain does include a lot of broadways, so despite the range advantage my plan for this hand is to fire one bullet and shut down unless I improve. Your bet size is too big, I would fire a 30-40% bullet most likely...and since I already know my plan is one bullet and shut down, I would opt for the 40% sizing to make the bullet a bit more substantial.

Turn is a 100% check for me. Kx just turned trips, hearts just hit the flush, 9x probably feels like you are less likely to have Kx. You're pretty much toast against everything here.

River you hit the boat, based on the action it's an easy fold. I've noticed in lower stakes that players won't often check monster hands like this even if the other player is betting...they won't risk a check down. Had you checked turn, you could potentially call a small river bet as it's possible he thinks a flush is good or 9x based on your action. I think I still fold to a big bet though.
 
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eetenor

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Villain has been limping all day with no PF raises. I didn't expect a call here and when I did, I couldn't put him on a range too easily. After the flop, I didn't think he had a K since he didn't raise and with another K on the turn, I was certain my 4 was good here. A 4 on the River looked like my gin card. But alas. So should I fold Pre here? When the board pairs twice should I just check fold?

FYI, I ran a bluff a couple hands later on in this tourney into AA that thoroughly crippled me and I only ended up min-cashing. I didn't feel like I was tilting but maybe this hand took its toll!

NL Holdem $0.25+$0.02 (1400.00BB)
UTG ($30785)
MP ($80685)
HJ ($45225)
HERO ($160011)
BTN ($55493)
SB ($84463)
BB ($67484)

Dealt to Hero: 4 A

UTG Calls $1400, MP Calls $1400, HJ Folds, HERO Raises To $3675, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, UTG Folds, MP Calls $2100

Hero SPR on Flop: [6.57 effective]
Flop ($11725): 9 K 4
MP Checks, HERO Bets $8208 (Rem. Stack: $148128), MP Calls $8208 (Rem. Stack: $68802)

Turn ($28141): 9 K 4 K
MP Checks, HERO Bets $12663 (Rem. Stack: $135465), MP Calls $12663 (Rem. Stack: $56139)

River ($53467): 9 K 4 K 4
MP Bets $56139 (allin), HERO Calls $56139 (Rem. Stack: $79326)

MP shows: A K

MP wins: $165745


Thank you for posting

When our V limp all the time then our range for them is every card in the deck so we have to give them credit for any holding when they want to continue past the flop. It is only after we have ranged them that we start taking out hand combos from their limps.

Ok we have A4 versus a villain that may be limping every A2-AJ with a second V who will limp all of those hands as well. ( This V over limped AK which prove my point)

We then raise as a bluff which means we want a fold preflop because we do not want to hit an A and get stacked.

R 3675 pot=8575 before V has to call. V has to call 2275 to win 10850= 4.77-1 odds and V has 80k stack. K9s needs 3-1 odds to call versus TT-88 etc but is getting 4.77-1

Look at those odds and consider what sizing you might want to use in the future as a preflop bluff looking for folds.

So no reason to think he has no KX here.

This V plays a lot of hands for limps which is week scared play but then shoves the river. We should never think courageous aggressive bluff or thin value shove with flush after we bet 2 streets from this type of V on that board.

Hope this helps

:):)
 
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