$22 NLHE MTT Turbo: 3bet call, 3 bet fold, no 3 bet?

ChickenArise

ChickenArise

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pokerstars, $20 + $2 - Hold'em No Limit - 800/1,600 (200 ante) - 9 players
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a365551 (UTG): 11,190 (7 bb)
ericro2264 (UTG+1): 53,542 (33 bb)
jjone101 (MP): 36,929 (23 bb)
Killuckkk (MP+1): 50,397 (31 bb)
Pocok85 (LP): 14,742 (9 bb)
Zackattak13 (CO): 22,468 (14 bb)
Kubanas (BU): 82,995 (52 bb)
EthericWiki (SB): 29,010 (18 bb)
El-plumeur-s (BB): 33,432 (21 bb)

Pre-Flop: (4,200) Hero (EthericWiki) is SB with J J
3 players fold, Killuckkk (MP+1) raises to 3,520, 1 fold, Zackattak13 (CO) 3-bets to 5,440, 1 fold, EthericWiki (SB) 4-bets to 7,360, 1 fold, Killuckkk (MP+1) 5-bets to 50,197 (all-in), Zackattak13 (CO) calls 16,828 (all-in), EthericWiki (SB) folds
 
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300HPGOD

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You start the hand with about 18 BB so to me its a great rejam stack size when someone raises in front of us. I would rarely if ever want to get to cute here and try some kind of min raise, especially with a hand that is vulnerable like JJ. I would not love the action in front of me with a raise and a 3 bet but I would be 4 bet jamming here. I know there will be sometimes that I run into it but I also (depending on opponent that 3 bet) could be going against AK, AQ, 1010 and 99. I am only really scared of AA-QQ that could be there but with 18 BB this is too good to fold and min raising here makes little sense to me. When we min raise what do we think is going to happen? We will either be put all in or will be called and then have to see a flop that could have an overcard and put us in a spot where we have to make a nitty fold or just wind up going with it anyway. 4 bet jam here since you really dont want to see a flop here with chips behind.

As played when you 4 bet small and then there is a 5 bet jam and call I would think I was behind here from one of the opponents. I would fold as played to that jam and call but again I would not be in that spot as I would have already have my chips in. The AK vs AK is really the only one possibility that you are feeling good about. Even if you go AK vs 1010 vs yours JJ you are in good shape but will actually still lose over 50% of the time. Jam pre here and if you run into it, you do but 18 BB stacks dont allow you to try to do what you tried to do.
 
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fundiver199

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What kind of reads did you have on CO? Its incredibly weird that he min 3-bet with a 14BB stack, and right off the bat I am thinking, its one of the following:

a) misclick
b) someone playing silly with AA
c) a huge fish goofing around with whatever

If there were ofter fish tells, then snap jam and hope to run good. If CO is more of a nit, then I might actually just pass on this one and try to find another spot. I would never call and put in 25% of my chips OOP with JJ, and min 4-betting is even more silly than the min 3-bet.
 
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Sidetracked

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JJ is easily a good enough hand to get in preflop. 18 BB is a tricky stack size, and you can simplify things (and make sure you realise your equity) by getting it all in pre.
 
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mktpppr

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Hello,

Shove or fold, readless this is a fold.

MP+1 is not opening wide because he has many reshove stacks behind.

CO is showing immense strength, similarly with reshove stacks behind.
 
Nr98

Nr98

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just 4b jam it in with Jacks for 18BB. This is super nitty & needless unless there's any icm pressure


Yeah no need to make it more complicated than it has to be. We're OOP, 4B fold shouldn't be an option with our stacks. Amazing spot to jam any day of the week for only 20bb :D

Yes, CO may have aces occasionally, but you're going to find just as many random hands that are button clicking here. If we jam we're absolutely printing money.
 
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fundiver199

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Yeah no need to make it more complicated than it has to be.

Exactly. Make a decision and either get it in or fold. Putting in 25% of our stack and then folding the best hand without even seeing a flop is obviously not something, that we want to do. And yes sure this was a near best case scenario with them both having AK and blocking each others outs. But even if we assign them ranges like TT+, AK, AQs, which I think is reasonable, we still have 28,4% equity, and with the price, we gave ourselfes, we only needed 25%. So even as played folding is still a clear mistake.

The only thing, which can justify this fold, is, if we think, there is a very solid chance, CO have AA or KK. But if we think that, why on earth are we then putting in 25% of our stack? Is this "for information"? Just hit the fold button then and watch, how it plays out. There is no law against folding JJ preflop, and nobody will know, what you folded. So just pretend you had 72o and move on to the next hand, if you are not sure, whats going on.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Exactly. Make a decision and either get it in or fold. Putting in 25% of our stack and then folding the best hand without even seeing a flop is obviously not something, that we want to do. And yes sure this was a near best case scenario with them both having AK and blocking each others outs. But even if we assign them ranges like TT+, AK, AQs, which I think is reasonable, we still have 28,4% equity, and with the price, we gave ourselfes, we only needed 25%. So even as played folding is still a clear mistake.

The only thing, which can justify this fold, is, if we think, there is a very solid chance, CO have AA or KK. But if we think that, why on earth are we then putting in 25% of our stack? Is this "for information"? Just hit the fold button then and watch, how it plays out. There is no law against folding JJ preflop, and nobody will know, what you folded. So just pretend you had 72o and move on to the next hand, if you are not sure, whats going on.

It cannot be said much more than this - plug the hand into icmizer and for chip bb - 30bb here this is an eeeaasssssy 4b jam. We are simply too high in our range to fold and to 4bet/fold 25% of our remaining stack is a travesty.

This being said, if this were a FT i think icm implications would probably have us either just calling, or folding JJs alot because the dynamic changes and we have to be super tight in order to secure better cashes thus increasing our overall ROI - this in a nutshell means folding some pretty strong hands preflop simply so we do not take large flips at the FT, we are shooting more for being a massive favorite.
 
ZenGreen

ZenGreen

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BAM some action here. why didnt you jam pf, those pairs go down down down the more people and the more streets involved.

Curious, is it me or was the Raise bet and 3bet both kind of small it almost seems like the raise bet should of been closer to 6.7K or 7k but your small 3bet is only 7k seeming like it should been closer to 11k. 3.5K rasie to 6.7K 3bet to 11k I dunno
 
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eetenor

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PokerStars, $20 + $2 - Hold'em No Limit - 800/1,600 (200 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

a365551 (UTG): 11,190 (7 bb)
ericro2264 (UTG+1): 53,542 (33 bb)
jjone101 (MP): 36,929 (23 bb)
Killuckkk (MP+1): 50,397 (31 bb)
Pocok85 (LP): 14,742 (9 bb)
Zackattak13 (CO): 22,468 (14 bb)
Kubanas (BU): 82,995 (52 bb)
EthericWiki (SB): 29,010 (18 bb)
El-plumeur-s (BB): 33,432 (21 bb)

Pre-Flop: (4,200) Hero (EthericWiki) is SB with J J
3 players fold, Killuckkk (MP+1) raises to 3,520, 1 fold, Zackattak13 (CO) 3-bets to 5,440, 1 fold, EthericWiki (SB) 4-bets to 7,360, 1 fold, Killuckkk (MP+1) 5-bets to 50,197 (all-in), Zackattak13 (CO) calls 16,828 (all-in), EthericWiki (SB) folds


Thank U 4 Posting

I would want to know the playing style of Zackattak. This click back should be a pot builder with AA KK AK . If it is then JJ is a fold.

If however the clik back is a wider range of hands then we can shove.

I have seen many poor players make click back raises with K10 etc. They even do it when it makes 0 sense like this spot leaving themselves 10bb.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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SoulMan87

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I dont like 4bet 7,5k with JJ from SB. Not easy to play it without the position. So either call or go allin. But in current case, very hard decision, I think fold. Otherwise what was the point to not go allin earlier?
 
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