$22 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: $$22 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: $22 NLHE MTT: Can i fold here???

A

anthony c

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$22 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: $$22 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: $22 NLHE MTT: Can i fold here???

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 170/340 Blinds 25 Ante (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

UTG (t4,510)
MP (t5,735)
CO (t18,060)
Hero (Button) (t9,021)
SB (t36,285)
BB (t20,553)

Hero's M: 13.67

Preflop: Hero is Button with
ah.gif
,
jc.gif

3 folds,btn Hero raises to t700, 1 fold, BB raises to t2,380, Hero raises to t8,996 (All-In), BB calls t6,616

I have no stats on villain its his 2nd hand and 1st hand he open utg and
everyone folded,he has a big stack and its btn vs bb!!!
I thought he was just bulling me and was restealing with that big reraise.
I had about 24bb left should i have folded because i had no info and waited
for better spot??
What should i have done???
 
B

byrnsiey330

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What position were you in the tournament? The BB is allowed to have a good hand... With an M of 13 you don't need to make a move yet, but AJ is an underdog to most hands someone 3-bets with. Did you have him on any kind of hand range or were you just banking on the fact that he was raising with air?
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

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U accomplish nothing by shoving. Your options are flat or fold. If you shove you fold out worse and only get called by better. In my opinion I would flat, because villain knows we are likely opening a looser range from the button and is 3 betting lighter looking for a fold. I know I do that sometimes.

So lets think, most of the time we are going to be opening crummier hands than AJ out of the button. If we are only going to call a 3 bet with AQ+ the BB will easily exploit us by punishing our opening range OTB.

Flat and re-evaluate on flop
 
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RamdeeBen

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Being readless and only having 1 hand prior than this makes it a difficult spot imo. That said, it is BTN vs BB and we do have a great hand, he certainly does have the stack size to play back at us. He could be 3B bluffing with worse Ax hands, random suited connectors and of course pairs and AQ+

I think if this was vs a regular player, I'd certainly 4B shove but it's difficult to say vs someone we have no information on.

I don't hate your 4B shove by the way, I think it's fine in general and can't be bad for our stack size and positions but would love it if we had more information on the player.
 
Shufflin

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I don't love calling here -- assuming villain 3 bets flop, if we miss, have to fold, and if we make a pair, we're right back to guessing whether he has a better hand. I'm folding pre.
 
Arjonius

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With no info, I prefer folding over shoving. I have no reason to think that this villain is 3betting light on this hand. And if I assume the probability he's doing so is low, how much do I really want to get it in?
 
Jblocher1

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I think folding is exploitable. But then again we have no info on BB. Yeah tough spot, fold or shove is really dependent on him, but we know nothing about him.

When we shove.... What worse is going to call?
 
Jblocher1

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I don't love calling here -- assuming villain 3 bets flop, if we miss, have to fold, and if we make a pair, we're right back to guessing whether he has a better hand. I'm folding pre.


Your not accounting for the times villain shuts down when we call, which is often. We are IP and have that advantage going to the flop. I really believe we can be ahead of a big chunk of BB's range right now. Though we don't know how aggro he really is.
 
duggs

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U accomplish nothing by shoving. Your options are flat or fold. If you shove you fold out worse and only get called by better. In my opinion I would flat, because villain knows we are likely opening a looser range from the button and is 3 betting lighter looking for a fold. I know I do that sometimes.

So lets think, most of the time we are going to be opening crummier hands than AJ out of the button. If we are only going to call a 3 bet with AQ+ the BB will easily exploit us by punishing our opening range OTB.

Flat and re-evaluate on flop

you know it can be profitable to jam a hand that gets called by better only right?
 
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hffjd2000

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You have still a healthy stack and not desperate so why risk all of it.

I think raising preflop is just fine but reraising his reraise with AJ is too much for me.
 
Shufflin

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I don't love calling here -- assuming villain 3 bets flop, if we miss, have to fold, and if we make a pair, we're right back to guessing whether he has a better hand. I'm folding pre.

Oops; I meant "assuming villain C-BETS flop" lol...
 
Jblocher1

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$22 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: $$22 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: $22 NLHE MTT: Can i fo...

you know it can be profitable to jam a hand that gets called by better only right?


Of course, but his range needs to be weighted towards air I'm assuming. We don't know what's going on with this guy. We know nothing about villains range in the first place. Should a shove just be our default?
 
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I'm putting the Guy on a AQ SK range here so I would fold and wait till the next hand, your 9 times out of 10 going to be behind if you have no information on him
 
duggs

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I'd have to see some stats but we do have a pretty ideal stack for him to 3bet and we are pretty high up in our range. I'd definitely be jamming on a bunch of people
 
jdeliverer

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I think folding is exploitable. But then again we have no info on BB. Yeah tough spot, fold or shove is really dependent on him, but we know nothing about him.

When we shove.... What worse is going to call?

It's ok to be exploitable readless if you're playing to exploit the average player. Whether or not folding AJ to a 3-bet is exploitable depends entirely on the button opening range. I think it's pretty normal to fold AJ here.
 
Poker Orifice

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I'd have to see some stats but we do have a pretty ideal stack for him to 3bet and we are pretty high up in our range. I'd definitely be jamming on a bunch of people

this ^
same
ditto
I concur
 
Arjonius

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I'd have to see some stats but we do have a pretty ideal stack for him to 3bet and we are pretty high up in our range. I'd definitely be jamming on a bunch of people
I'd jam on quite a few players too, but the question is whether to do so vs an unknown.
 
duggs

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If fold based on sizing I guess, good regs won't 3.5 x it here. Anything closer to a standard reg sizing and I jam
 
Arjonius

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If fold based on sizing I guess, good regs won't 3.5 x it here.
Maybe all goods regs won't always do this, but is this enough of a read to warrant risking our tournament life? If you think so, fine. I think it's thin at best.
 
duggs

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Maybe all goods regs won't always do this, but is this enough of a read to warrant risking our tournament life? If you think so, fine. I think it's thin at best.

What? I said fold since its a fish sizing and fish are way too strong
 
el_magiciann

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If i were you i would fold in that spot.
 
Karozi615

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In a vacuum against even decent players I really see no problem with shipping it. Shipping gets you a lot of folds even though your hand plays somewhat poorly against a call. You have enough big blinds to fold, but as others have said that would almost certainly be an exploitable tendency. It's just unfortunate because sometimes BB shows up with AK and AQ, and that's incredibly annoying.

But really, if they snap with TT how can we complain? And AJ still does have like 28% equity against the KK, QQ, and even AK and AQ.
 
duggs

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People won't be trying to exploit us with a be size that has to succeed really often tho
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I think I'd flat or fold. I don't see what jamming accomplishes.

maybe I give fish too much credit, but the first time I see an otherwise tight player make a really aggressive move; I give him the benefit of the doubt and figure he's got a real hand.
 
A

anthony c

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If fold based on sizing I guess, good regs won't 3.5 x it here. Anything closer to a standard reg sizing and I jam

Thanks guys
Is his raise size a leverage 3 bet for my stack is that what your saying??
That could be true and then i should fold i will remember that thanks

It looks like some of you think i could of shoved so i guess its not
that bad of a play and u right i think the info depends if u jam,call or fold.
Does no one think he(a big stack) could of re-steal allot btn vs bb.
I decided to jam because of this info:
1. he was a big stack
2. He looked aggressive because big stacks are more aggro and because of 1st
hand he bet from utg and second was this one!!
3. Its a good spot too 3 bet steal for a big stack and might called with worse
with ace blockers,mid pairs and kqs,kjs in his range
4.It would be profitable with the times he folds and it would be often
Is it profitable and is it wrong to think this with this info??
I was shocked when he called i was so sure he would fold cause of this spot
because people do that allot in the micros guess i was the fish here
 
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