$215 NLHE MTT: Fing fish hooks. 1M MTT

[zedesq]

2nd day of $1M. Still 500 to money but moving fast. 30 hands on this table of which I've played 2 showing only AA. 8 players.

23bb w JJ utg+2. Villain in co 3bets 7bb. I flat. I only know villain from this table. Active but does not seem out of line. Only previous 3bet was premium in bb. There is a huge stack in sb that folds, so 17bb pot.

Flop is T98, 2 suited and I have both suits. Villain shoves. Do I call off my 16bb?

 

[fundiver199]

I call this jam all day long. You might have the best hand, and unless you are against exactly QJ, which is very unlikely, when you hold two jacks yourself, you have 8-10 outs.

 

[zedesq]

Based on villain's short history, I was pretty sure I was up against a monster. If I thought his range did not include AK, I would have strongly considered not risking my tournament. I had sufficient odds against AA and KK, but not against QQ.

 

[zedesq]

Taking it a step further, would villain shove AA or KK? Prob not. AKs, yes. He was unlikely to have JJ, TT, 99, or 88. If I had taken the time, I think I could have narrowed his range to 2 hands. Perhaps this is giving him too much credit due to the fact I know the answer, but if I could narrow this to the sole AKs or any QQ, this is a fold for me.
Yeah, I think I'm over thinking this. But when I snapped, didn't occur to me I would be a 3 to 1 dog against QQ.

 

[fundiver199]

But when I snapped, didn't occur to me I would be a 3 to 1 dog against QQ.

Other than QJ, QQ was the worst hand for you to be against, but I do think, its very results oriented to have regrets, because this is, what he actually had. I dont see, why he would play KK-AA any different from QQ. Sets could also be somewhat represented, and he can have bluffs like maybe AQ or AJ. Given stack sizes JJ also goes broke to QQ here on a lot of other boards, and it would also not have been unreasonable to simply 4-bet jam pre and get it in. So overall just a standard cooler.

 

[Jon Poker]

This is a 4b jam preflop - any software will tell us this -- we take our equity here on 23bb and run with it. JJs are a tricky one, we don't want to invest 1/3 of our remaining stack preflop just to see AQ7 on the flop and then fold to a cbet from KT or 99, TT, etc. Like I said, the situation is what it is, 4b get this in pre - coolers happen and are what they are, stop trying to avoid them when you cannot.
That's all this hand is... its just a cooler...there is nothing you can do about such a thing, theres nothing learn from it, to its no fun being on the bad end - just know the long term play is +ev. Stop worrying about what you cannot control.

If you are considering folding JJ on 89T, then what are you willing to call off? It's a snap call here, so what if the guy has QQ+? Better to have the additional equity now rather than be up against QQ+ on 332 - which you should still be calling off shoves on - and again, will find yourself coolered. It's inevitable.

I find these spots significantly results oriented. I highly doubt you would have posted this hand had you been up against AK, or AT, etc and ended up winning the hand. People tend to focus on "should I have gone broke" rather than "what is the proper line here?" Or "did I play this entire hand well".

 

[eetenor]

2nd day of $1M. Still 500 to money but moving fast. 30 hands on this table of which I've played 2 showing only AA. 8 players.

23bb w JJ utg+2. Villain in co 3bets 7bb. I flat. I only know villain from this table. Active but does not seem out of line. Only previous 3bet was premium in bb. There is a huge stack in sb that folds, so 17bb pot.

Flop is T98, 2 suited and I have both suits. Villain shoves. Do I call off my 16bb?

Thank you for posting

You start with 23bb and and calling gives us a pot size bet post flop. What was the reason you called?

If we thought the V only had AA KK QQ AK it is a fold.
If the V has 22-AA AK AQ AJ KQ A5s etc. it is a Jam preflop
If we want to see a board with no overs first then it is a lead Jam flop as we got a great flop for us vs the part of the range AK AQ KQ etc we only called preflop to see a flop for. It is a -EV play to give a free card on this flop.

We are live no matter what the V holds on this flop as we can tie if they have QJ but if we think they could have QJ why are we not already all-in preflop?

On this flop T98 with your stack size small bets make no sense for V as many of the bet sizes pot commits the V. 25% for instance is 3.25 bb making the pot 35.25- if you check raise- so a call = 2.56 to 1 for the V so they are pot committed when they bet even that small. If a 25% bet pot commits the V then a shove is the better sizing to get some folds and get max value with the best hand.

Hope this helps

 

[puzzlefish]

Who is raising with these other hands to 7bb in this tournament (and at this point in the tournament)?

 

[fundiver199]

If we want to see a board with no overs first then it is a lead Jam flop as we got a great flop for us vs the part of the range AK AQ KQ etc we only called preflop to see a flop for. It is a -EV play to give a free card on this flop.

Thats actually a good point. As played preflop, the best strategy on this flop is probably the good old stop and go, since we are rarely far ahead or far behind here. Being the first player to move in gives the other player a chance to make a folding mistake, and if we can get him to lay down a hand like AQ or KQ, which has 10 outs, thats a great result for us. Even AK has 6 outs or around 25% equity, and by forcing him to fold we reduce our variance.

 

[fundiver199]

I find these spots significantly results oriented. I highly doubt you would have posted this hand had you been up against AK, or AT, etc and ended up winning the hand. People tend to focus on "should I have gone broke" rather than "what is the proper line here?" Or "did I play this entire hand well".

Absolutely true. I think, there might be some live poker dynamics at play here. It was day 2 of the tournament, and of course it sucks to go home. But the thing is, there are people like for instance Vanessa Selbst, who have made an entire career out of live players, who dont want to go home, because they are having to much fun staying in the casino and playing the tournament.

If people play with that "scared" mentality, players like Vanessa can just go totally out of control and literally bluff themselfes to high heaven. Which as we all know she did. So if your want to give yourself the best chance of winning money in tournaments, you need to live by the rule outlined by Doug Polk in several of his videos, that sometimes its just your turn to die. And this was such a time.

 

[Badday94]

Tough one. I would be so tempted to make this call even if most likely I know I'm behind. I don't know what generally would be the correct line here, but most of the times I would make the call. More often then not, you would be ahead here.

 

[Mr_Nuisance]

I definitely think that you can't hate yourself for calling off your chips there, even if the villain had the nuts in the situation you would still be drawing live to a chop. If villain happened to hit a set or has an overpair to the board, you are still drawing very live with a bunch of cards that could give you the winning hand.