$215 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: flatting AK to induce in scoop 21 M

duggs

duggs

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pokerstars – $200+$15|40/80 NL – Holdem – 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
CO: 13,090.00
BTN: 9,273.00
SB: 15,820.00
BB: 13,239.00
UTG: 10,379.00
UTG+1: 7,317.00
Hero (MP): 9,910.00
MP+1: 20,651.00
LP: 10,475.00
SB posts SB 40.00, BB posts BB 80.00
Pre Flop: (120.00) Hero has Kc Ah
UTG raises to 200.00, fold, Hero calls 200.00, MP+1 calls 200.00, fold, CO calls 200.00, BTN calls 200.00, fold, BB raises to 1,120.00, fold, Hero raises to ?????
sizing please? and thoughts on line in general?
bb is a spazz running at 75/56 and i think i get squeezed enough here to make it ok.

thoughts?
 
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only_bridge

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I'd probably push here.
Simple, practical and solves a lot of quarrel.
 
duggs

duggs

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thoughts on flatting UTG open?
 
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BluffYou123

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I like the flat because it was likely to get squeezed by bb. Ship it.
 
duggs

duggs

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thoughts on 4bet/calling?
 
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eazy489

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Because the bb is so spazzy I really like shoving here for 2 reasons. First , he can call ur shove with worse hands. Second, if we 4 bet small which is really our only other option , and he calls, he is likely to put us in a tough spot post flop if our ak bricks.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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Well if you flatted to induce - what's the problem? You got what you wished for, so what did you think you were going to do when someone came over the top? Size? Going to go 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 times his bet (min). $3k+, especially with all that dead money in the pot.

I would not have flatted to induce with AK (certainly with AA or maybe KK) as it is too easy to miss the board and his QT pair up or his pocket three's hold up. I'm going to raise right there and keep the leeches out. Also, with the blinds where they're at it's pretty early to be making these huge pots without more power. Not to mention he has you covered.
 
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WiZZiM

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I like 4bet/calling, but we can never fold on the flop...

So sometimes we will look really stupid when we get it in on the flop when he flops a random pair and we brick with AK.

I like this play better as i think shoving makes this guy fold out too many hands, and inducing with a smaller raise lets him make more mistakes.
 
duggs

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you dont think he calls shoves with a wider range than he 5bets?
 
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WiZZiM

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Not against the type of player you describe.

He is likely a gambler, he probably doesn't really care too much about the money, probably some rich idiot who has a spare 200 to waste. Basically he's a whale who isn't really thinking too much about the bet size or whatever, he's just having fun, likely drunk and snorting cocaine off a hookers chest.

That said, it probably isn't much fun for him to just get shoved on, and since it's like another 8k for him to call it's a little steep considering how wide his range likely is. Of course he will still call a shove with probably a ridiculous amount of hands, but i like to induce here as i think it will likely keep close to his whole range in, so we don't fold out parts of it. ( i could be wrong here, just my opinion)

Either way our decision is made when we 4bet, we can never really fold, so i'd make it like 2900 to go and just get it in on the flop no matter what.

The only thing that probably makes this a little iffy is the fact that sometimes he just flat calls, then shoves the flop, that makes it a little tough... I'm still calling there, as he is clearly a spazz who can do anything at any given time. But sometimes he will hit a random pair, and bust us out of the tourney, which some might argue is a bit of a mistake considering we're "Deep". However i feel that getting this guys chips before someone else at the table does is really important. I'd be trying to get in as many pots as i could with this guy because if we don't, the other players at the table likely will. In addition, i'm sure there are a million players entered into this tourney, so getting a big stack is even more important in such a large field event, and i'm sure our edge can't really be that great to be passing up spots early.

Anyways, that's what i think, i could be very wrong since you have likely played in more MTT's than me.
 
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I actually really really like your logic, only thing i disagree with is the not calling super super wide, i think this type of players just absolutely hates bet/folding, so will spite call wide. But will often call a 4bet and not get it in on some flops when he flops complete air biscuits.

Im of the opinion its really close between shoving and 4bet/calling. i elected to shove just because i know from his stats he hates folding, and i dont have any guarantee that he 5bets retarded wide (as he likely flats a shit tonne) also i think my shoving range looks alot weaker than my 4betting range imo.

thanks everyone for your input
 
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WiZZiM

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Yeah agreed on the folding flop often, However i still believe that he will fold to a shove pre-flop a pretty big chunk of the time. In my experience with similar players they tend to push the money around in smaller pots(well small to them), but when shoved on they tend to wimp out, or just think "lol, you caught me"... So with that said, perhaps we can make our 4bet a bit bigger, to account for the times he folds the flop, so perhaps 4k and hope he calls, we get a bit extra for the time he misses flops, and will still flat a fair bit of the time..

Adding to that above, I definitely wouldn't be shoving flop if i paired up, i'd be again betting to induce. So i'd say we could also look into doing that even when we'd flopped nothing, as i'd say this type of player might try and bluff us out of the pot. And since we're so far ahead pre-flop, we're likely ahead on the majority of flops. He will call probably anything if he does pair up, so he will call a shove anyway so we may as well induce him to bluff.

So maybe we raise to like 2700, making the pot like 5.5k or aroudn that, bet then like something ridiculous(especially when we flop a pair or better)... like making 2k and hope he shoves? To me, the flop doesn't really matter as we've already made our decision pre-flop. So i'm quite happy inducing all the way here, even if i'd flopped nothing.


") also i think my shoving range looks alot weaker than my 4betting range imo. "
Your percieved range is irrelevant here, he aint thinking about you too much. So you have to kind of assume what he might be like, then put yourself in his shoes. I'd make the assumption by the way he's playing that he's likely not a qualifier, more likely that he's just rich, and has money to spend. Also, by his stats and your reads, he's likely a bit of a bully, pushing his chips around without any real idea what he's doing.

So that said, he isn't thinking about your range. So he won't know that making it smaller is strong, or shoving is weak, or vice versa really. So we have to think if i were in his shoes. WOuld i carry on and call 8k on two random cards, or would i be more likely to get involved if it we're only a smaller raise?

So really i think we have 3 options which could be the best play here.. i also think there are pros and cons of each, so at the end of the day, we can't make a mistake with shoving, so the question is, will he put more money in, more often by doing the two plays below, and will that account for the times we let him see the flop and hit a pair and win?

Making the 4bet smaller, then inducing on the flop with nothing, and with pairs and better. Or alternatively just shove the flop(though i don't like this as much since we kind of agree he will fold a lot when he whiffs, so i'd prefer making the 4bet bigger to gain a few extra chips)

Making 4bet larger, then just shoving the flop(or inducing again with pair hands, it might look silly to bet like 1k into an 8k pot, but if it gets him to put chips in, who cares?)

Shoving pre.



I hope this is making sense, i'm in a rush and don't have time to screw around making it readable.
 
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only_bridge

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I like 4bet/calling, but we can never fold on the flop...

So sometimes we will look really stupid when we get it in on the flop when he flops a random pair and we brick with AK.

I like this play better as i think shoving makes this guy fold out too many hands, and inducing with a smaller raise lets him make more mistakes.

I would have liked this if we were first to act on the flop. But we're not.
And with AK I would be happy with adding 20% to our stack without showdown.
 
MediaBLITZ

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I would have liked this if we were first to act on the flop. But we're not.
And with AK I would be happy with adding 20% to our stack without showdown.

Yeah - my biggest "objection" is it so early to get that deep into some action when a nice little score is what the doctor prescribes. I guess I've slowed down and have more respect for small pots that I used (thinking I had to take down a monster pot or not at all). It is not an easy decision.
 
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WiZZiM

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Yes i would normally agree with you guys totally.

But as i've said. The field is huge, our edge is small, we're likely 10 hours away from making the money, so i'd prefer to take this spot on and try and double up.

Shoving is probably the best long term play here, but i'm saying screw long term in this pot, i want to get as many of his chips into play as possible.
 
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great posts wizzim, think you have made some greats points, one thing tho is that alot of massive spewtard fish play pre and post completely differently and i know he call me off stupidly wide. i much prefer you line with 99+ rather than AK tbh
 
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Slow Roll Poker

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I'd push all-in here. It's hard to lay down AK with action like that, but any raise wouldn't be enough. Push it all in and let's hope they don't have aces.
 
duggs

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I'd push all-in here. It's hard to lay down AK with action like that, but any raise wouldn't be enough. Push it all in and let's hope they don't have aces.

read above not at all worried about their range beating us, never folding, more interested into how best to extract value
 
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WiZZiM

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great posts wizzim, think you have made some greats points, one thing tho is that alot of massive spewtard fish play pre and post completely differently and i know he call me off stupidly wide. i much prefer you line with 99+ rather than AK tbh

Yeah agreed, theres a thing to be said about making the easiest +EV play too. And other points like not going to showdown which i'm likely underestimating. Always good to explore the non "standard" plays though :).
 
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I shoved after a few secs, everyone else folded and BB snapped me with 55
 
Pascal-lf

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if BB is a massive fish making it like 2.3k to go here seems fun seeing as we're in position and have a hand thats nice and easy to play post flop
 
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