$20 NL HE STT: Borderline play- limp and call shove?

StealTheButton · Apr 28, 2023

Three players left in 6max tourney- 2 places paid. Villain is hyper aggressive. Big blind can be aggressive, but is not a good player and chooses bad times to make moves.

I was considering a raise with my A7o, but I did not want to play this hand out of position and I only had about 11 blinds left). Villain will make a big bet as soon as checked to. I was considering a jam as well, but I limped. Now this player will shove WIDE, and we can include hands like A3, Q8, K6, 67, etc. Had I been a little more short stacked, or my Ax kicker was a little higher I would have instantly jammed.

With the ICM implications this was probably not a great move (I was not even thinking of the third player at this point), but should I play the hand like this in certain situations? I'm probably only a 60% favorite to win, which is not great, and there are other possible holdings which dominate me. I was just so sick of this mofo. (I'm sorry, I could not grab a screenshot fast enough)

pokerstars, $18.50 + $1.50 - Hold'em No Limit - 75/150 - 4 players

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Soupman2020 (UTG): 1,519 (10 bb)
meck1558 (BU): 602 (4 bb)
runningqueens (SB): 1,482 (10 bb)
saulgoodman2001 (BB): 5,397 (36 bb)

Pre-Flop: (225) Hero (runningqueens) is SB with A♦ 7♠
2 players fold, runningqueens (SB) calls 75, saulgoodman2001 (BB) raises to 5,397 (all-in), runningqueens (SB) calls 1,332 (all-in)

Flop: (2,964) K♠ 5♠ 3♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (2,964) J♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (2,964) A♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 2,964

Showdown:
saulgoodman2001 (BB) shows 8♣ Q♣ (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 45%, Flop: 22%, Turn: 9%, River: 0%)

runningqueens (SB) shows A♦ 7♠ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 55%, Flop: 78%, Turn: 91%, River: 100%)

runningqueens (SB) wins 2,964

eetenor · Apr 29, 2023

StealTheButton said:
Three players left in 6max tourney- 2 places paid. Villain is hyper aggressive. Big blind can be aggressive, but is not a good player and chooses bad times to make moves.

I was considering a raise with my A7o, but I did not want to play this hand out of position and I only had about 11 blinds left). Villain will make a big bet as soon as checked to. I was considering a jam as well, but I limped. Now this player will shove WIDE, and we can include hands like A3, Q8, K6, 67, etc. Had I been a little more short stacked, or my Ax kicker was a little higher I would have instantly jammed.

With the ICM implications this was probably not a great move (I was not even thinking of the third player at this point), but should I play the hand like this in certain situations? I'm probably only a 60% favorite to win, which is not great, and there are other possible holdings which dominate me. I was just so sick of this mofo. (I'm sorry, I could not grab a screenshot fast enough)

PokerStars, $18.50 + $1.50 - Hold'em No Limit - 75/150 - 4 players

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Soupman2020 (UTG): 1,519 (10 bb)
meck1558 (BU): 602 (4 bb)
runningqueens (SB): 1,482 (10 bb)
saulgoodman2001 (BB): 5,397 (36 bb)

Pre-Flop: (225) Hero (runningqueens) is SB with A♦ 7♠
2 players fold, runningqueens (SB) calls 75, saulgoodman2001 (BB) raises to 5,397 (all-in), runningqueens (SB) calls 1,332 (all-in)

Flop: (2,964) K♠ 5♠ 3♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (2,964) J♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (2,964) A♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 2,964

Showdown:
saulgoodman2001 (BB) shows 8♣ Q♣ (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 45%, Flop: 22%, Turn: 9%, River: 0%)

runningqueens (SB) shows A♦ 7♠ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 55%, Flop: 78%, Turn: 91%, River: 100%)

runningqueens (SB) wins 2,964

In satty play I have used the collision factor for many years-Folding more raw equity open hands letting others knock each other out so I win the seat---Recently I was studying videos on Raise your Edge and the coach was using collision factor for ICM spots as well- I think you have that very situation here by the way you describe the other two V. We want them to battle each other to let us lock up 2nd place-

With that said we are not going to avoid good spots with this stack size which this spot is- so yes we can shove here.

However your study point here is the emotional reaction to this players aggression. When we are in this spot we appreciate this V's agg that can make us money by knocking the other guy out- That is where the collision factor works- two weak agg players making us money by letting us lock in second place-yes we want to win but we are always happy for an easy cash. If we change our mindset to focus on the money then we will not make an emotional play based on I want to get this mofo- We always want to get the money first the mofo second🤑

So after winning this hand I would not play any marginal spots and just let them collide.

For those who do not know the best ROI strategy for the large stack they also want to use the collision factor vs the two 10bb stacks they want to over fold and force the other stacks to battle each other -Our strategy as the big stack is to be the aggressor not call vs a strong range and to use the clock against the shorties to get to the next blind level- So we are stalling every hand and forcing them to play for stacks to lock up the money.

StealTheButton · Apr 29, 2023

I will frequently play a very tight range here with the plan of the large stack knocking out the shorty. Only problem is that the blinds and antes come around quick. When the small stack luckily doubles up you find yourself the short stack. Also taking into consideration that 3rd place pays nothing- with 3 places paid and fighting out less of a paygrade jump at 2nd place I would loosen up a bit.

Yes I'm not gonna lie that my reaction was a little emotional, and we should not let emotions dictate our decisions.

eetenor · Apr 29, 2023

StealTheButton said:
I will frequently play a very tight range here with the plan of the large stack knocking out the shorty. Only problem is that the blinds and antes come around quick. When the small stack luckily doubles up you find yourself the short stack. Also taking into consideration that 3rd place pays nothing- with 3 places paid and fighting out less of a paygrade jump at 2nd place I would loosen up a bit.

Yes I'm not gonna lie that my reaction was a little emotional, and we should not let emotions dictate our decisions.

If the big stack V is not calling 100% of hands but is calling high equity hands like Q9s we do not want to be loose here. The collision factor strat is a higher ROI effective strategy then the double up or die strat in this spot vs these player types. Even when the other shorty doubles if they continue to battle the bigger stack after the double-

Again this is only an exploit based on the description of these two Villains and we are not over folding good hands only the marginal ones- We can use a bounty hand range as a guide here because the V is acting like it is a bounty tournament.

fundiver199 · Apr 30, 2023

When we are a mid-stack with a big stack on our left, our adjustment is to play less hands and, if at all reasonable, move all-in preflop to take the play away from the chip leader. Here the effective stack was only 10 BB blind vs. blind, which is a completely standard push and fold situation anyway. But with this stack distribution the advantage of playing push or fold becomes even larger. It should be noted also, that this SnG seem to have no ante, and in that situation there is not much reason to have a SB limping strategy in any situation. The purpose of the SB limp is to allow us to play more hands and fight for the ante more often. But when there is no ante, its usually fine to play raise or fold from SB and avoid playing as many pots out of position.

We can use ICMizer to illustrate the advantage of playing push or fold in this situation. If Hero push, he can profitably push 38% of hands, which include any pair, any ace, and broadway, most suited kings and a decent chunk of other suited connectors and even the best offsuit connectors like T9o and J9o. A7o is very profitable with +0,71% of the price pool, so there is definitely no kicker issue here. The most important is to have the A blocker, since it mean, we will get called less often. Even A2o is +0,39% of the price pool.

If by contrast Hero use a limping strategy, Hero get to play 49% of hands, which in itself is good. However Villain now get to play 100% of hands, since he can take a free flop, and he get to jam 49% of hands. Whereas if Hero jam, Villain only get to call it off 21% of the time. Villains jamming range include almost all suited hands, so he played the GTO strategy by jamming Q8s. Hero on the other hand can only call with 11% of hands, which does not include A7o. In fact Hero need ATo to make a marginal call, and A7o loses Hero 1,01% of the price pool.

So if Hero play push or fold, he get to play 38% of hands, and when he enter the pot, he win it uncontested 79% of the time. The other 21% of the time Hero is slightly behind on average but still has the chance to win and dubble up. If on the other hand Hero limp, he can do that with a few more hands. But half the time he will get jammed on, and 80% of the time he will then need to fold. And the other half of the time Hero will need to play postflop out of position against the chip leader, which is usually a very uncomfortable situation with a lot of question marks, and which can easily lead to Hero busting due to some kind of cooler situation or failed bluff catching.

Of course this is assuming, that Villain is a good player, who know and follow the equilibrium strategy. If he is a bit of a calling station, then Hero get to jam less hands. But even if I widen Villains calling range to 31% of hands or 50% wider, than its supposed to be, A7o is still a solidly profitable jam for Hero, and only A2o is now unprofitable. So for me the only reason to consider limping here would be, if Villain is very passive both preflop and on the flop. If he will only raise very strong hands and then also fold to a lot of flop stabs, that can be great. But that was not the dynamic described in the writeup.

300HPGOD · May 1, 2023

This is a jam pre based on the given stack sizes of others. It would be more interesting if say low chip villain had what they had (or maybe 100-200 more) and other low chip villain had 1150 instead of slightly more than us. But with us being in 3rd at the moment (I know next blind is theirs) and a hand like A7 heads up with 10 BBs we should be jamming this pre. I think in this spot with these stacks villains have I would be playing jam or fold poker pre flop. I really hate limping here as you did unless its a scenario where we know villain will raise or jam over our limp at least 75% of the time. Then I am fine with limping to induce and my intention would be when I limp is to get all in pre flop... I am just letting villain do it with a wider range than what they would presumably call me off with if I had jammed. Problem with that is if you have to know villain will raise or jam on you often and not sure we know that unless we have played against this villain in several STTs. There is one player that I occasionally play against (wont name) that I would absolutely limp to in this given spot since they would jam over me at least 90% of the time and I try to take advantage of their over aggression when the effective stack is 12 BBs and less. Here though, I just dont know if we know that so jamming imo is by far the better play.

The above is nice but just not sure how much we can trust it since we are going against a human and not a computer that would be playing perfectly. We come to the same conclusion and jam but in the end it will always come down to what do I think my opponent does here in these spots if I were to do a set action?

Luvepoker · May 1, 2023

I would either push or fold here as well. I would not limp and call. Even if he is raising 100% of hands do you really want this to come down to the 5 cards to Determan who wins here. The shot stack is putting in over 1/3 of their stack in the next 2 hands. I would rather fold a bit tight here than let the luck of the draw be the final factor here.