$2.50 NL HE MTT: Interesting spot w/88

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tzuriel

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I know nothing about V except he just started playing in Dec on this client, anyway.

I 3bet here with 88 and get called. There's only one overcard on the flop but it's certainly one that could hit him. He makes a big bet but I don't think he would do that with a Q. Could be a flush draw? Or an overpair. I am not done with this hand yet so I call. Turn completes a flush and he checks and I check back. Boat comes on the river but now I think he does have a Q when he shoves. I don't think he would do that with a flush on this board into the biggest stack (Would he?) I fold. Right or wrong? Any insights to this hand are appreciated!

NL Holdem $2.27+$0.23 (350.00BB)
UTG (81.9BBs)
EP (19BBs)
MP (49.9BBs)
HJ (38.6BBs) [VPIP: 25% | PFR: 25% | AGG: 66.7% | Hands: 4]
HERO (136.8BBs)
BTN (14.5BBs)
SB (46.7BBs)
BB (35.2BBs)

Dealt to Hero: 8 8

UTG Folds, EP Folds, MP Folds, HJ Raises To 2.6BBs, HERO Raises To 7.1BBs, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, HJ Calls 4.5BBs

Hero SPR on Flop: [1.89 effective]
Flop (16.6BBs): 2 Q 5
HJ Bets 8.3BBs (Rem. Stack: 23.2BBs), HERO Calls 8.3BBs (Rem. Stack: 121.4BBs)

Turn (33.3BBs): 2 Q 5 2
HJ Checks, HERO Checks

River (33.3BBs): 2 Q 5 2 2
HJ Bets 23.2BBs (allin)
, HERO Folds

HJ wins: 33.3BBs
 
dallam

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The exact same issue you had both on this hand, and the outcome was not suprising as well.

Everyone folded around when HJ made 2.6bbs - this bet is totally fine, although not necessary hiding weaker combinations than 88. I kinda feel that if you put a 3bet here, and expect BTN's shove, no matter who will go all-in will beat you most of the times so you better to actually fold to a 4-bet. But your 3-bet came through here, so that's not the situation you were faced with.


Optimally your range should include here the overpairs, Q set, Q pair, flushes... just to mention a few! So you can be connected to this board on every single level when it comes to the nuts. Also the boards is very isolated, opp should not have 2 or the 5 at all, and only 1 overcard and the flushdraw is here on his side.

So I would never count on a donk-bet. Moreover if villain hit something on this board, to making it max value or the less pain, it should be checked, cause your 3-bet and the Q on the board and the flush as well, you supposed to raise here like all the time, even if you not hit it (which can't be a case, you won't blank it when you have an exact same combination like 2nd pair 88). That was the mistake on OPP's side, this party can't be half pot donk-betted never.

On your side, when you had theoretically all the cards and combinations to be able to beat opp, you're facing up logically a big mistake here. And I would not react to this the same way like doing a mistake as well. Your strong hands were definitely targetted, and now as it was turning, your opp connected this board with Q, flush draw or set, maybe bluffing second pair. Do we beat anything of these? Maybe, but we are unable to chase them till river.
The whole 3-betting idea was about to having control over the party, and we're loosing it and miss the action as well, simply able to play down cheap or even getting rid of it. But here, we can already see with that exact pocket 8's its just hard to run this cheap now, nor taking down the pot on the river. So you supposed to fold it here and now.

However, if villain raise half pot here, no matter if you have Set here or AA, you should never 3bet it, only call!! So you could still have the absolute winner hand, but here's my final part of the review:
I started this that " the outcome was not suprising " - and I meant it. After making a logically bad move from opp, I was getting ready to see another one on turn or on the river. As you see now, flush came and even the board had a straight on it. But still making the all-in, and no matter what cards would fall down, he would do the same. So that's why you were not allowed to ever chase with the 88 cause even you could be leading sometimes,the outcome is predictable when this mistake happens on an early street - and no matter what opp had here, it was a fishy action so you could make a note on that he raised into your 3-bet OOP in 25Q and few hands later I'm confident to see him exposed.

Thanks for posting, of course you had a huge stack, so probably this one not broke your win or deep run. Good luck. :)
 
eetenor

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I know nothing about V except he just started playing in Dec on this client, anyway.

I 3bet here with 88 and get called. There's only one overcard on the flop but it's certainly one that could hit him. He makes a big bet but I don't think he would do that with a Q. Could be a flush draw? Or an overpair. I am not done with this hand yet so I call. Turn completes a flush and he checks and I check back. Boat comes on the river but now I think he does have a Q when he shoves. I don't think he would do that with a flush on this board into the biggest stack (Would he?) I fold. Right or wrong? Any insights to this hand are appreciated!

NL Holdem $2.27+$0.23 (350.00BB)
UTG (81.9BBs)
EP (19BBs)
MP (49.9BBs)
HJ (38.6BBs) [VPIP: 25% | PFR: 25% | AGG: 66.7% | Hands: 4]
HERO (136.8BBs)
BTN (14.5BBs)
SB (46.7BBs)
BB (35.2BBs)

Dealt to Hero: 8 8

UTG Folds, EP Folds, MP Folds, HJ Raises To 2.6BBs, HERO Raises To 7.1BBs, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, HJ Calls 4.5BBs

Hero SPR on Flop: [1.89 effective]
Flop (16.6BBs): 2 Q 5
HJ Bets 8.3BBs (Rem. Stack: 23.2BBs), HERO Calls 8.3BBs (Rem. Stack: 121.4BBs)

Turn (33.3BBs): 2 Q 5 2
HJ Checks, HERO Checks

River (33.3BBs): 2 Q 5 2 2
HJ Bets 23.2BBs (allin)
, HERO Folds

HJ wins: 33.3BBs
This hand is a spot where we can stack protect once we 3 bet and get lead into by an unknown at this buy-in level-We can fold flop- Why? What is a weak player leading into us with when we 3 bet? 77? X5 X 2 not in a 3 bet pot most often---think about our 3 bet range vs a 40bb open ---we are 3 betting GTO 8% of hands-88 is a flat by the way- GTO or non GTO villains- HJ has shoves- and it is - Neg EV to call- after 3 betting
So vs a standard V thinking we are a standard V--they are most often thinking we 3 bet 5% of hands and yet they lead into us putting their stack at risk- So what do they lead? AA trap preflop- Qx 55- JJ TT maybe-flush draws AKss A2ss
Vs that range we can find an exploit fold with the 88 on flop even in position- Add in the 8s and the call is better but not even necessary vs standard V
 
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300HPGOD

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If I am 3 betting this hand pre then I would go bigger here then what you made it. We really dont want to get called pre since our hand, even though in position, will be put in tough spots depending how many overcards flop and many flops will bring 2 so I like 3 betting to try to take it down not to make it smallish as you did trying to get a call.

Flop: weird spot to donk lead yes but some opponents like to do it for the hell of it especially on a board like this as they might believe that we might think their Qx is afraid of a check back (less likely in a 3 bet hand) so they arent betting with air. I just dont like folding here since if we are folding 88 then are we folding JJ as well and other hands with value? I call here and see what the turn brings. Im not married to 88 of course but I am not going to 3 bet it to then fold to a donk lead with one overcard coming on the flop.

Turn: Villains check here could mean a lot of things. I like checking if in their spot (although I would never play this hand the way they did) for that reason of I could (being the villain in this hand) check a huge hand here knowing I can still get it in on the river if you dont take the bait on the turn. From our perspective I think checking back is best but I know others wont like it or agree with me but I dont mind betting super small here (and do it sometimes) as a blocker bet of sorts for the river. Im trying to get to showdown here so we have to decide is the cheapest way to do that checking here and seeing what villain does on the river or betting here small to possibly prevent villain from betting river or making them more inclined to check river.

River: villain jams which could also mean a lot of things just like every other street in this hand. They could bluff here with some frequency of course since we know nothing about them or they could have stone cold nuts somehow donk leading 2x, checking the turn hoping to check raise maybe? and then jamming river or have some hand close to nuts. Obviously this is a polarized bet not just sizing wise so we have to take our best guess at how good 88 really is here. I could see it being ahead of smaller pocket pairs that villain overplays and I could see bluffs along with Qx. Im pretty sure I would fold this river in game since that is just me and my tendency but I think this one is up in the air. Getting 2.43 to 1 on a call on the river do we think we are good enough of the time? Based on that I think this is probably a move where you are not too right or wrong either way but I know I fold which I am not saying is correct just being truthful with my poker ability in these spots.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
Before deciding to put in a 3-bet we should always ask ourselfes, what outcomes we are happy with, and how the rest of the hand is going to play out. With 38BB effective the opponent is getting a decent risk-reward on a 4-bet jam, and since they are out of position, they are incentiviced to do that rather than call. Are we happy to face a 4-bet jam for 38BB with 88? Not really in my opinion. So what then if Villain just call our 3-bet? Then the SPR is only going to be around 2, and 88 is not an easy hand to play with such a low SPR. There are going to be a lot of awkward situations, like the one, which happened in this hand, where its not quite clear, what we want to do.

So we are only really happy, if the opponent fold, which mean, we are bluffing. But why pick a hand with no relevant blockers as a bluff? If we are only happy, when they fold, we should be 3-betting hands like A4s or even K5s, since they block hands like AA, KK and AK. This was a long way for me to say, that I do not like this 3-bet. I would just call and look to play with a much deeper SPR than 2, where the value of flopping a set is higher, and where there is more room to use your position to outplay him.

Flop
Facing this donk bet is certainly an awkward spot, and I can kind of go both ways here. The issue with continuing here is, that he has less than a pot sized bet left, and how often are we going to be able to get to showdown? Realistically we mostly end up folding later, and then its a reasonable exploit to just fold now and be done with the hand. But with that being said it is very weak-tight to 3-bet pre and then fold to a donk bet on a board like this, and we might not want to give him or other players the idea, they can just call our 3-bets and then donk into us on the flop and make us fold a huge percentage of our range. So calling is definitely the more balanced and GTO like approach, which if nothing else force him to empty the clip and risk his entire stack, if he wants to bluff us.

Turn
Definitely dont see any reason to bet. If he had a flushdraw, he just got there, and maybe he is checking as a trap. If he has a Q, he would also likely check now, because he dont like the third spade. But that does not mean, he is going to fold with less than a pot sized bet left. So if you bet here, I would generally expect, that better hands would call and worse hands fold. This leave protection as the only reason to bet, and I simply dont think, you have the best hand often enough to think about protecting it.

River
When he jam now, he is essentially saying, he has a Q and just filled up. Or maybe once in a while a weirdly played KK-AA. You dont block any of the logical QX hands or for that matter KK-AA, and I dont think, he is taking this line with 33-77. So if you want to make a big hero call here, AK is actually a better candidate than 88. The other issue is, that the main draw got there. Not because he is likely to be checking turn and jamming river with a flush on a obvious full house board. But when a draw got there, it dont need to bluff. So we are down to hands like a wheeldraw or total air. I dont think, there is enough of that in his range, so good fold.
 
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tzuriel

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Thanks everyone. I appreciate the insights. I especially like the comments about not 3betting 88. That's a leak I can fix!
 
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tzuriel

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-we are 3 betting GTO 8% of hands-88 is a flat by the way- GTO or non GTO villains
This chart shows 50/50 between flatting and 3betting w/40 BB effective. I think I am reading this correctly
1674349404542
 
SpanRmonka

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This chart shows 50/50 between flatting and 3betting w/40 BB effective. I think I am reading this correctly
View attachment 322045
A few things stand out to me in this chart. I don't yet use this kind of GTO chart BTW.....so 88, as you had, is I would say 40/60 3 bet/call here. So why is 99 a 90% call? and 77 a 100% call with 88 in the middle? That's a big swing.

The similarly AJs is a Call, but ATs is 60/40 call/3 bet, A9s is back to 100% call, A8s is 50/50, A6 and A5s are then almost massive 3 bet spots. I do undertstand the changes here, but they seem too extreme to me. I would love it if someone could provide some explanations.
 
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fundiver199

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A few things stand out to me in this chart. I don't yet use this kind of GTO chart BTW.....so 88, as you had, is I would say 40/60 3 bet/call here. So why is 99 a 90% call? and 77 a 100% call with 88 in the middle? That's a big swing.
Most likely because the solver wants to have board coverage in both its 3-betting range and calling range. However I dont think, this is particularly important against human opponents, because how are they ever going to be able to know, if you dont hit on certain boards? For us to get exploited, someone need to know, we are never 3-betting 88, and they just wont have that information, especially not in a large field MTT.

And in a 2,5$ game people are also not thinking on this level. They are mostly just playing their hand. So for me I am totally fine always flatting 22-99 here for 40BB effective and never putting in a 3-bet. This is also much easier to implement in real time, because if you want to use the solvers suggested strategy, you need to flip a coin or something every single time to decide, if you call or 3-bet with your 88. And who on earth can remember, that 99 is only supposed to be 3-bet 10% of the time but 88 50%. Its way to complicated and totally unnessesary.
 
BelFish

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This chart shows 50/50 between flatting and 3betting w/40 BB effective. I think I am reading this correctly

And what is this program?

Interesting charts!

It would be interesting to look at all the charts that are there...

Maybe there is a similar program in the application for a mobile phone?

P.S. By the way, i once created a topic with a variety of MTT charts that i could find:

 
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tzuriel

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A few things stand out to me in this chart. I don't yet use this kind of GTO chart BTW.....so 88, as you had, is I would say 40/60 3 bet/call here. So why is 99 a 90% call? and 77 a 100% call with 88 in the middle? That's a big swing.

The similarly AJs is a Call, but ATs is 60/40 call/3 bet, A9s is back to 100% call, A8s is 50/50, A6 and A5s are then almost massive 3 bet spots. I do undertstand the changes here, but they seem too extreme to me. I would love it if someone could provide some explanations.
In addition to what fundiver said, the mixed strategy on these similar hands allows for 3bets with hands like J9s K8s and T8s. But he is correct that most people at this level are not thinking about your hand, only their hand. Nevertheless, 3betting here with some frequency is not a mistake
 
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tzuriel

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And what is this program?

Interesting charts!

It would be interesting to look at all the charts that are there...

Maybe there is a similar program in the application for a mobile phone?

P.S. By the way, i once created a topic with a variety of MTT charts that i could find:

This chart is from pokercoaching.com
 
lukaszkrzi

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Preflop: Your 3-bet with 88 is a good move as it gives you a chance to take down the pot preflop or to build a bigger pot if you hit your hand. HJ calls, indicating a good hand as well.

Flop: The flop comes 2♥ Q♠ 5♠, there's only one overcard but it could hit your opponent. HJ makes a big bet, which could indicate a flush draw or an overpair. You decide to call, as you don't think he would do that with a Q.

Turn: The turn is 2♠, completing a flush. HJ checks, you check back. This could indicate that HJ does not have a flush, but it could also be a trap, so it's important to be careful.

River: The river is 2♦, completing a boat. HJ shoves all-in, indicating a very strong hand. You think he might have a Q, but you also consider that he could have a flush and you are not sure. Given the situation, folding is a reasonable decision, as it preserves your chip stack and you are unsure of your opponent's hand.

It's important to consider the bounty as well, since it's a bounty tournament, taking down the pot and the bounty would be a big win. Overall, you played the hand well, considering the information available, and it's hard to say what the right decision is without more information on the HJ player.
 
eetenor

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This chart shows 50/50 between flatting and 3betting w/40 BB effective. I think I am reading this correctly
View attachment 322045
Thanks for sharing the chart---My GTO charts do not have this action at all - I would not try to find this action vs standard players as others have stated
 
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