atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
Didn't clear anything up for me, I still think folding is the right play here because the BB will/should call with any two cards.
atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
That depends on how long until the next blind increase, how active the players have been...stuff like that.
I'm just saying with no other info, I'm folding this.
cjatud2012
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
What do you mean no other info? What more info would you need?
If we fold, we're left with about 3.5bb's, villain now has about the same, other shorty has about 2.5bb's. So yes, we're not the shortest stack, but we're not safe either. Who's to say the shorty is gonna be all in on his next BB? Or that he will lose if he does get all in? Then we're screwed, as the blinds will hit us and then we'll be miserably short stacked. If we shove and he somehow folds, we'll have 5bb's, villain will have about 1.5bb's, and the other shorty will still have 2.5bb's. If we shove and win, we'll have almost 8bb's, be done with the bubble, and will be in much better shape to go heads up than if we folded to the money. If we lose, we're left with a little under 2bb's, which is exactly the same problem we'd face if we were to fold here.
So strictly looking from how it'll affect table dynamics, shoving is more preferable, I'd say... Plus it's a +$EV shove according to ICM no matter his calling range.
I'd still love to hear how people would play if we were in the BB here.
If we fold, we're left with about 3.5bb's, villain now has about the same, other shorty has about 2.5bb's. So yes, we're not the shortest stack, but we're not safe either. Who's to say the shorty is gonna be all in on his next BB? Or that he will lose if he does get all in? Then we're screwed, as the blinds will hit us and then we'll be miserably short stacked. If we shove and he somehow folds, we'll have 5bb's, villain will have about 1.5bb's, and the other shorty will still have 2.5bb's. If we shove and win, we'll have almost 8bb's, be done with the bubble, and will be in much better shape to go heads up than if we folded to the money. If we lose, we're left with a little under 2bb's, which is exactly the same problem we'd face if we were to fold here.
So strictly looking from how it'll affect table dynamics, shoving is more preferable, I'd say... Plus it's a +$EV shove according to ICM no matter his calling range.
I'd still love to hear how people would play if we were in the BB here.
dg1267
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
AF, you have to understand that there are many more dynamics involved than our cards and whether or not he'll call with ATC. At this stage you have to be looking for situations to get ahead, not looking for good cards. The cards we want will hardly ever come, so we have to force issues. Most of the time that means we need to shove with less than spectacular holdings.
But when you are on the bubble, you need to be thinking about where you fit into the mix in terms of playing style, what spot you are in at the moment, what spot you could be in one orbit, 2 orbits, etc. It's a chess match that doesn't require us to catch hands, but just to be a smarter player than the other guy.
But when you are on the bubble, you need to be thinking about where you fit into the mix in terms of playing style, what spot you are in at the moment, what spot you could be in one orbit, 2 orbits, etc. It's a chess match that doesn't require us to catch hands, but just to be a smarter player than the other guy.
atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
I never said anything about looking for good cards.
You just gotta know going in that you have 0 fold equity here.
Even if your opponent is a druling idiot - he's still gonna call no matter what.
And that's a valid point - even if YOU think it's not.
Think about the hands that you would call with if you had 500 in the BB and only 870 behind....
edit:
The thing that sucks about this situation is that almost every hand plays well against K2o.
cjatud2012
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
like I said earlier, even if we have no fold equity, it's a +$EV play according to ICM... and also, the arrangement of the stacks dictate we shove, as I posted above.
edit: the pic is kinda small, sorry bout that, if you can't read it, it says to push 53.2% of hands if villain is calling 100%. The difference is 0.35%, not an insignificant amount.
edit: the pic is kinda small, sorry bout that, if you can't read it, it says to push 53.2% of hands if villain is calling 100%. The difference is 0.35%, not an insignificant amount.
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dg1267
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
LOL Whatever man. I've tried to be patient, as well as others, and explain it to you. If you don't want to learn, or you're just trying to be a PITA, then fine. I really don't care. But there are others on here that do want to learn and you posting some of the stuff you do hurts their chances.
It's not like you have a bunch of people who don't have a clue about SnG play telling you this either. It's people like Wizzim, Cardplayer, cjatud, myself, zerosum (one of the SnG masters)... the list goes on. I mean geez, what the hell has to be said to make you a believer? Who has to say it.
My guess is your just getting your kicks out of being a PITA like this and tbh, that's sad. But whatever man. Have fun getting robbed blind.
cjatud2012
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
I probably haven't given a lot of time to discuss calling as the BB, but I still think I ought to put up SNGWiz's thoughts on it. It says to call kind of narrow, but the problem with SNGWiz is that it cannot predict the $EV of future hands, therefore it doesn't know that it's better to call in this spot than wait any longer, even if it's -$EV. So I'm probably going against Wiz here and still calling ATC.
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atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
LOL Whatever man. I've tried to be patient, as well as others, and explain it to you. If you don't want to learn, or you're just trying to be a PITA, then fine. I really don't care. But there are others on here that do want to learn and you posting some of the stuff you do hurts their chances.
It's not like you have a bunch of people who don't have a clue about SnG play telling you this either. It's people like Wizzim, Cardplayer, cjatud, myself, zerosum (one of the SnG masters)... the list goes on. I mean geez, what the hell has to be said to make you a believer? Who has to say it.
My guess is your just getting your kicks out of being a PITA like this and tbh, that's sad. But whatever man. Have fun getting robbed blind.
I believe you have a hard time admitting that there's more than one way to look at any given hand.
Those people you mention aren't gods, they are still learning too.
Everyone is - I'm not saying I know the right play, but from my experience I'd fold. Last time I checked, this is a place to voice opinions and read other's opinions as well.
I don't support PITA, do you?