$2.25 NLHE STT: Multi way pot, on the button, I hit TPTK

[dg1267]

$2.25 NLHESTT: Multi way pot, on the button, I hit TPTK

Everyone limps, then on the flop it's checked to me. Should I go for this? If it's reraised, I'm in a tough position, but it's quite tempting anyway. I didn't put any stats on here because there are so many that see the flop.

full tilt poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: t2209 22.09 BBs
BB: t1060 10.60 BBs
UTG: t2190 21.90 BBs
UTG+1: t2290 22.90 BBs
MP: t2231 22.31 BBs
CO: t2200 22 BBs
Hero (BTN): t1320 13.20 BBs

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is BTN with A:heart: 7:heart:
UTG calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100, 1 fold, CO calls t100, Hero calls t100, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (t550) 3:spade: 5:heart: 7:club: (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero ???

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

I bet 300 here. I'm not expecting 4 folds but I also don't think a reraise is that likely. (A lot of these limped hands are K-rag, Q-rag or any two suited cards).
We have two backdoor draws as well, there are quite a lot of cards that improve our hand on the turn.

 

[baudib1]

fold preflop. shove the flop. We don;'t have the stack to play postflop poker, additionally, the BB is short and should be shoving a large percentage of the time. actually, shoving yourself isn't terrible.

 

[dg1267]

Yeah, normally I would have folded this pre. But my coach is trying to get me to open my game up a little more by calling these limped pots in late position with Ax suited hands. Myself, I would never shove this preflop. It would make me feel all funny.

 

[Rldetheflop]

Yeah, normally I would have folded this pre. But my coach is trying to get me to open my game up a little more by calling these limped pots in late position with Ax suited hands. Myself, I would never shove this preflop. It would make me feel all funny.

even with a stack this short?

to me this is shove or fold and I really could go either way. of course its totally read dependent

 

[fletchdad]

I find a call PF funny here as well. A shove or a fold, IMO. Did you ask your coach what he thinks here? Why would he want you to limp in a multiway when you are short? The flop is an insta shove to the checked board. If someone is slowplayin trips, well, so be it. As bigthing said, you got 2 backdoors. When do the blinds go up? If they are hitting you when they go up, push here, why wait? Why wait anyway since you entered, you might as well push this wimpy table of callers.

 

[baudib1]

you have more fold equity than you think and your hand has some equity, it's not hopeless, when called.

against a typical limping range that might snap you off:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.801% 47.19% 05.61% 779028940 92531736.00 { AA, TT-22, A2s+, KTs+, QJs, A4o+, KTo+, QJo }
Hand 1: 47.199% 41.59% 05.61% 686568644 92531736.00 { A7s }

please pay attention to SPRs. you realize when you bet this flop, as you should, when you get a caller you have less than a potsize bet remaining.

if shoving this makes you feel funny, you better get used to it because SnGs require you to shove a lot worse at certain times.

 

[dg1267]

I guess a shove would make a little more sense here. tbh, I would rather fold, but I'm trying to get a little more aggressive. My thinking here was that I could get away cheap on a flop I don't hit, but rethinking that doesn't make much sense when I'm sitting with less than 15bbs. I will post the question to my coach but I think I'm wrong here in thinking this is what he was wanting me to do.

 

[cjatud2012]

Everyone limps, then on the flop it's checked to me. Should I go for this? If it's reraised, I'm in a tough position, but it's quite tempting anyway. I didn't put any stats on here because there are so many that see the flop.

Full Tilt Poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: t2209 22.09 BBs
BB: t1060 10.60 BBs
UTG: t2190 21.90 BBs
UTG+1: t2290 22.90 BBs
MP: t2231 22.31 BBs
CO: t2200 22 BBs
Hero (BTN): t1320 13.20 BBs

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is BTN with A♥ 7♥
UTG calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100, 1 fold, CO calls t100, Hero calls t100, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (t550) 3♠ 5♥ 7♣ (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero ???

Responding without looking at the other responses yet.

Why are we limping behind here? With 13bb's that's pretty bad imo, we don't have the implied odds we need to follow with a speculative hand. Just fold it pre.

The tricky part about the flop is that we ought to bet to protect against/ collect value from overcards, I suppose some turn cards could hit that fills some more straights too, but basically flopping TPTK here is a lot different than flopping TPTK with AQ on a Q73r flow, so we can't check since our hand is a lot more vulnerable. But when we face resistance here it's pretty unlikely that we're good, or if we are good we don't have that much equity, i.e. against gutshots+overs, gutshots+pairs, etc.

If we bet and we're called, that really sucks, cause there really aren't any turn cards that are gonna make us feel good about our hand. Anything higher than the board will make us uneasy, a 3, 4, 5, or 6 will improve a lot of worse hands, basically we'll only feel good about an ace and a 2. While that really sucks I don't know if that's enough to deter me from betting the flop (edit: just realized we could have a heart hit the turn, while this doesn't make a huge difference it makes me feel a little bit better about betting and getting called). Once we bet the flop I think we can probably safely fold to a raise, but if we're called I don't know if we should just try to get it in or look for a showdown. I might just shove the flop to avoid all this decision making, lol.

 

[cjatud2012]

Yeah, normally I would have folded this pre. But my coach is trying to get me to open my game up a little more by calling these limped pots in late position with Ax suited hands. Myself, I would never shove this preflop. It would make me feel all funny.

I agree with this but not with these stacks.

Shoving pre is definitely an option, there's already t350 sitting in the pot, over 25% of our stack. I still think I prefer folding though.

 

[dg1267]

I agree with this but not with these stacks.

Shoving pre is definitely an option, there's already t350 sitting in the pot, over 25% of our stack. I still think I prefer folding though.

Yeah, and if I would've had time to think it over a little, I would've shoved rather than called. I know the 20% rule and use it quite often, but these limped in pots always get me frustrated. That's why I posted this. Just wanted to see what people thought. I think with the more aggro line that my coach is wanting me to take, I'll start shoving in this spot.

I think most of the time, with a shove, we can get everyone to fold. But by calling, we are usually going to have someone that thinks this board is too sexy to fold to a bet on. Then we are in a really crappy spot. So thanks for the HA on this one. Hopefully I don't miss anymore of these.

Here's how the rest of the hand played out. I totally hate my bet on the turn that gets called by one player. But I'm shoving just about any turn, if not all, the way it's played. Oh well, I got lucky this time and was smart enough to bring it here to get some info. +EV all the way around, imo.


Full Tilt Poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: t2209 22.09 BBs
BB: t1060 10.60 BBs
UTG: t2190 21.90 BBs
UTG+1: t2290 22.90 BBs
MP: t2231 22.31 BBs
CO: t2200 22 BBs
Hero (BTN): t1320 13.20 BBs

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is BTN with A:heart: 7:heart:
UTG calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100, 1 fold, CO calls t100, Hero calls t100, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (t550) 3:spade: 5:heart: 7:club: (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t250, BB folds, UTG calls t250, UTG+1 folds, CO folds

Turn: (t1050) Q:club: (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t970 all in, UTG folds

Final Pot: t1050
Hero wins t1050

 

[cjatud2012]

yeah, I guess the trickier part about this pot is you have to figure you have less fold equity with the extra limpers. That's what would lead me towards folding rather than shoving, is that what you were asking?

 

[dg1267]

LOL I'm not really positive what I was asking for. Basically just advice on the hand in general. I'm not real comfortable playing these Ax type hands, but I do need to loosen up a little.

 

[cjatud2012]

Well I would say you shouldn't be playing them often in raised pots, you need some pretty good implied odds to do it too, and obv *never* play them in early position. I'm sure you know all this though

I guess to be more helpful, one thing to ask yourself in this spot is what kind of flop are we looking for with this flop? Obv three hearts is gonna be great, although that kind of ruins any action. This is why you need such great implied odds, probably over 20:1, whereas the rule of thumb for set-mining is 15:1 implied odds.

The next best flop for us would be a flush draw with a pair or straight draw, against some bigger made hands we're not much of a dog in these spots and if we can score some fold equity these can become very powerful situations (note that having to call an all-in with this type of hand is a far worse situation than pushing all-in ourselves).

The above two situations are fairly easy to play (and obv if we flop nothing that's pretty easy to play too). It becomes tricky when we get into spots like this one when we flop just a pair, or when we flop a just a flush draw. We're not gonna wanna get all our chips in the middle with these types of hands, so you kinda have to figure out for yourself what to do in each situation. Somtimes it's right to bet, sometimes it's right to check and try to get to showdown, gotta fold to some bets, certainly to most raises. It really is a case by case basis in those marginal spots.

If in doubt, if it's still early I'd probably just fold. It'd be better to maintain our equity for the push/fold game than risk that equity in weak spots.

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

I bet 300 here. I'm not expecting 4 folds but I also don't think a reraise is that likely. (A lot of these limped hands are K-rag, Q-rag or any two suited cards).
We have two backdoor draws as well, there are quite a lot of cards that improve our hand on the turn.

After reading this thread I realize I was not assessing the stack sizes properly in this response, and agree with everyone that this should be a shove on the flop, and a shove or fold pre.

It got me wondering though: how much BB's, or how much M, do we need to make this a call? Because the direct and implied odds are great in this spot, no?
I've been playing this exact brand of SnG (FTP, $2.25) for some time now and I doubt a lot of players have the audacity to raise marginal/drawing hands from the BB in this spot.