$2.25 NLHE STT: AK raised utg, 3bet by utg+1

dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
$2.25 NL HE STT: AK raised utg, 3bet by utg+1

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 19/14/1

Villain has a 5% 3bet as well. Is this one of those spots where there isn't really an outstanding play?

full tilt poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: t1310 21.83 BBs
BTN: t2540 42.33 BBs
SB: t3490 58.17 BBs
BB: t1495 24.92 BBs
Hero (UTG): t1955 32.58 BBs
UTG+1: t1315 21.92 BBs
MP: t1395 23.25 BBs

Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is UTG with K:diamond: A:spade:
Hero raises to t150, UTG+1 raises to t480, 5 folds, Hero ???
 
Rldetheflop

Rldetheflop

Head Ranger
I think I have to let this go. flatting seems very wrong guess shoving is an option but seems like it could be ugly and we dont have any fold equity. villain seems pretty decent here but there is quite a bit of money in the pot so getting in vs JJ or QQ wouldnt be horrible. still feels like a fold to me. Like you said not really a great option.
 
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rounder22

rounder22

Rock Star
I would fold here based on his 3betting range, you will find a better spot to get your chips in vs a worst opponent.
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
Well, I blew this one. I had absolutely no reason to shove here but I did. And now this guy has a note that he will 3 bet with medium PP's LOL. I knew I was bad right after I clicked the button. He didn't even have to flip his cards.:eek:

Full Tilt Poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: t1310 21.83 BBs
BTN: t2540 42.33 BBs
SB: t3490 58.17 BBs
BB: t1495 24.92 BBs
Hero (UTG): t1955 32.58 BBs
UTG+1: t1315 21.92 BBs
MP: t1395 23.25 BBs

Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is UTG with K A
Hero raises to t150, UTG+1 raises to t480, 5 folds, Hero raises to t1955 all in, UTG+1 calls t835 all in

Flop: (t2720) 2 T T

Turn: (t2720) T

River: (t2720) 2

Final Pot: t2720
Hero shows K A (a full house, Tens full of Twos)
UTG+1 shows 6 6 (a full house, Tens full of Sixes)
UTG+1 wins t2720
 
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pat3392

Visionary
Well, I blew this one. I had absolutely no reason to shove here but I did. And now this guy has a note that he will 3 bet with medium PP's LOL. I knew I was bad right after I clicked the button. He didn't even have to flip his cards.:eek:


I'm not sure how big your sample was, or how big it even needs to be but if he's 3-betting 5% you have 47% equity; the dead money is so small it's irrelevant and the fact someone else could wake up with a monster makes this a fold if he's pushing 5%

Let's be slightly result orientated; against the minimum range that has 66 in it you have 61% equity; he's probably 3-betting more than that though so this is a clear push.

Don't beat yourself over such a sticky spot! Listen to yourself! You actually got it in good, even though he was ahead. That may not make sense; if he's prepared to 3-bet 66 here then he'd probably do the same with a range full of dominated A, so this push was +EV

I don't think I could ever fold this here. I think it would be pretty terrible considering that the game is a very small buy-in; players here think 2 pictures are da nutz. I was completely against calling this here pre but I actually like it now because as RideTheFlop pointed out, we have very little fold equity. I'm not sure if this play is optimal, but I think calling the bet and shoving any river will be more +EV as that will create fold equity.

On second thoughts, that play is pretty terrible because he'd probably only fold stuff that we beat; he'd fold stuff like AQ/QJ but will probably call with his 66. So, I think you have to shove here and be happy when he shows 66, knowing that he could have quiet easily had a weaker A here, more often than your smashed
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
Actually pat, the whole reason I put this up was because of it being a sticky situation. I don't really like the stop and go in the positions we're in. Being in that early of a position, I don't think he's folding anything he's 3 betting with to a stop and go. But then again, that's probably a good thing.

I still like folding or shoving about equal though. If this guy's stats had been 30/20/4 with a 5% 3bet, I'd be happy 4bet shoving all day. But with this guys stats (even though the sample was only around 150 or so then) being so close to mine, I just think it is so close that really any play is good. One of those spots where mixing it up will be +EV in the long run.
 
Rldetheflop

Rldetheflop

Head Ranger
I'm not sure how big your sample was, or how big it even needs to be but if he's 3-betting 5% you have 47% equity; the dead money is so small it's irrelevant and the fact someone else could wake up with a monster makes this a fold if he's pushing 5%

Let's be slightly result orientated; against the minimum range that has 66 in it you have 61% equity; he's probably 3-betting more than that though so this is a clear push.

Don't beat yourself over such a sticky spot! Listen to yourself! You actually got it in good, even though he was ahead. That may not make sense; if he's prepared to 3-bet 66 here then he'd probably do the same with a range full of dominated A, so this push was +EV

I wouldnt get too hung up on this line of thought. Just because someone 3-bet here with 66 doesnt mean villain is 3 betting every hand 66 or better.

Decent regs occasionally throw in 3 bets with marginal hands because we dont want to only 3 bet QQ+ as its far too transparent.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
I wouldnt get too hung up on this line of thought. Just because someone 3-bet here with 66 doesnt mean villain is 3 betting every hand 66 or better.

Decent regs occasionally throw in 3 bets with marginal hands because we dont want to only 3 bet QQ+ as its far too transparent.

Not against UTG opens from UTG+1 they don't.
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
^^^True. And this is what I was getting at. The reason for this post was the positions, not the really the play.
 
Rldetheflop

Rldetheflop

Head Ranger
Not against UTG opens from UTG+1 they don't.


lol funny you say that I was actually thinking to myself as I typed that I wouldnt 3 bet utg raiser light but I was just sayin that if you see someone 3 bet with XX mediocre hand doesnt mean thats their 3 bet range.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
What's our sample size here anyway? I mean how reliable is our 5% 3bet stat.

As to the actual hand I don't play SnGs but I can't see folding against what should be perceived to be a very tight range to be wrong.
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm getting it in here I think, mostly due to the t720 already in the pot-- sure we don't have much fold equity but it does lower the edge we need to make this +$EV. As for his range, he has decent stats (doesn't necessarily mean he's a winning player), and is 3-betting an UTG player, so I don't necessarily think assigning him a narrow range is wrong, but just due to small sample size it may not be entirely correct to give villain that much credit here.

It's pretty close, could probably go either way. In-game I'm almost positive I'm shoving, looking at it here I'm probably still shoving.
 
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pat3392

Visionary
Actually pat, the whole reason I put this up was because of it being a sticky situation. I don't really like the stop and go in the positions we're in. Being in that early of a position, I don't think he's folding anything he's 3 betting with to a stop and go. But then again, that's probably a good thing.

I still like folding or shoving about equal though. If this guy's stats had been 30/20/4 with a 5% 3bet, I'd be happy 4bet shoving all day. But with this guys stats (even though the sample was only around 150 or so then) being so close to mine, I just think it is so close that really any play is good. One of those spots where mixing it up will be +EV in the long run.

I just reread my post and saw that it's a tad bit misleading; I don't think the stop and go is good

The thing is though, it's a $2 game..... Players here think a wide range of hands are good. I never had a HUD when playing those games so maybe his stats can make him exempt but still, I'd never fold AK here.

I don't think mixing it up will be +EV; I really don't understand what it will accomplish. Care to explain?

Surely it doesn't matter what we do with our actual hand but we should mix up our opening range here.

I don't think mixing up is something that needs to be considered at real small games but it is good practice for when moving up
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
I just reread my post and saw that it's a tad bit misleading; I don't think the stop and go is good

The thing is though, it's a $2 game..... Players here think a wide range of hands are good. I never had a HUD when playing those games so maybe his stats can make him exempt but still, I'd never fold AK here.

I don't think mixing it up will be +EV; I really don't understand what it will accomplish. Care to explain? If this guy is a reg (which I'm not positive he is) mixing up our play with specific hands would be like mixing up our play with different hands. But then again, I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say (right now isn't a good time for me).

Surely it doesn't matter what we do with our actual hand but we should mix up our opening range here.

I don't think mixing up is something that needs to be considered at real small games but it is good practice for when moving up

I think mixing up our play is great when reg's are considered, no matter the game. Even if they aren't thinking regs, they are still going to remember certain aspects of how you play. I don't think size of the buy in is relevant because it's still a buy in if you're following bankroll management.
 
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pat3392

Visionary
I think mixing up our play is great when reg's are considered, no matter the game. Even if they aren't thinking regs, they are still going to remember certain aspects of how you play. I don't think size of the buy in is relevant because it's still a buy in if you're following bankroll management.

I don't understand the logic of mixing up certain hands in push/fold situations but ok.

The size mattes in the sense that it is reflective of the opponents; in a small buy-in the players are more likely to be bad and hence, are more likely to make this play with a wide range of hands
 
Logan2

Logan2

Legend
A lot of times see players 3beting when see someone open raising only 2-2.5bb, probably is a mistake (because other times you see monster there) but in this low levels most people with lower pairs or AK/AQ/AJ frecuently raise min because cost less if will fold if not hit. When blinds are higher or with less players left then is understandable.

Not sure if was you who mention a coach was trying to make play this way (if not forget it), i just don´t get it, for me looks like take some value to your good hands and also it make it easy to be 3bet because it cost less to do it (lets say you raise 3bb, to 3bet you will need around 9bb, and if decide to fold will lose 9bb, if you only raise 2.5bb then will only cost 7-7.5bb to 3bet you, is easy to steal this way from villains).

Not saying is wrong, just saying i don´t like it much, i mean for big blind will only cost 1.5bb extra to call , and if already are called by other/s you end with more people there than you want, is already hard to take out people from calling in this stakes.

My point is, that if i raise only 2-2.5bb i really can´t say if villain is 3betting because have a hand or only because sense weakness on my part.

Of course in this especific case from utg+1 is not that smart but you see a lot of not smart moves on this level.

Maybe this will sound stupid but this jump to my eyes more than the hand itself.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
+1 to the "it's just a bleh spot" column.

Villain's already got a bit over a third of his stack in so we're probably not getting a fold from him if we shove. I hate our position if we flat.

Against a drooler I'm happy to shove this since there's loads of Ax / small pair hands in their range. Against someone who we think is decent, I don't like it much but I guess I can fold and wait for a better spot.

And yeah, definitely taking a note after that result...
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
I'm getting it in here I think, mostly due to the t720 already in the pot-- sure we don't have much fold equity but it does lower the edge we need to make this +$EV. As for his range, he has decent stats (doesn't necessarily mean he's a winning player), and is 3-betting an UTG player, so I don't necessarily think assigning him a narrow range is wrong, but just due to small sample size it may not be entirely correct to give villain that much credit here.

It's pretty close, could probably go either way. In-game I'm almost positive I'm shoving, looking at it here I'm probably still shoving.

Would your opinion be the same if post #4 said the villian had AA or KK?

Because, after all, AK is just a drawing hand.
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
Would your opinion be the same if post #4 said the villian had AA or KK?

Because, after all, AK is just a drawing hand.


I think what WVH is saying is the same thing Wizzim straightened me out on when playing AK. It's not that you are putting him on a specific hand, you're putting him on a range. AK beats tons of ranges. It's still a drawing hand, but even against PP's up through QQ if we hit, we win (as long as he doesn't hit).
 
cardplayer52

cardplayer52

Cardschat Elite
I fold here. The fact this guy is 19/14 that a bit too loose imo. And a 150 hand sample his 3bet will jump super high after this hand. The thing here is you got no fold equity at all ever. It's just hard here to put him on JJ+ here as even 5% is ~77+ AQs+ but even vs this range your only 43% equity. Combined with the fact your UTG and this guy is 3betting it should read strength.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
I think what WVH is saying is the same thing Wizzim straightened me out on when playing AK. It's not that you are putting him on a specific hand, you're putting him on a range. AK beats tons of ranges. It's still a drawing hand, but even against PP's up through QQ if we hit, we win (as long as he doesn't hit).


Keep telling yourselves that AQo is part of villian's range.

Once we call, there is no range to beat anymore. Just a specific hand. And most of the time, that specific hand kills ace king.

I feel like we are going in circles on many different threads. This isn't the first time I've voiced my opinion about ace king. Also, I can't stand when people jump all over me for my opinion on a hand. This happens a lot here at cardschat and tbh, it kinda makes me hesitate to give my opinion - which is a shame because everyone's entitled to his or her opinion.
 
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