$2.20 NLHE MTT Turbo: 77 in the BBvsBU

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Pokerblitz

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pokerstars, $1.96 + $0.24 - Hold'em No Limit - 2,500/5,000 (625 ante) - 9 players

greenhorna (UTG): 137,077 (27 bb)
dannyboy5661 (UTG+1): 93,405 (19 bb)
z2010r (MP): 71,776 (14 bb)
haruyan (MP+1): 70,027 (14 bb)
smokesy118 (LP): 77,327 (15 bb)
sandro1806 (CO): 187,715 (38 bb)
Denblanch (BU): 132,371 (26 bb)
III PRO III (SB): 89,028 (18 bb)
Hero (BB): 142,214 (28 bb)

Pre-Flop: (13,125) Hero is BB with 7 7
6 players fold, Denblanch (BU) raises to 10,000, 1 fold, Hero (BB) 3-bets to 141,589 (all-in), Denblanch (BU) calls 121,746 (all-in)

Main question is: is it the right move to go all-in? would a small 3bet be better? Main reason I shove is because it's hard to play out of position with small pocket pair and it may be interpreted as weak.
 
MemphisGrind

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PokerStars, $1.96 + $0.24 - Hold'em No Limit - 2,500/5,000 (625 ante) - 9 players

greenhorna (UTG): 137,077 (27 bb)
dannyboy5661 (UTG+1): 93,405 (19 bb)
z2010r (MP): 71,776 (14 bb)
haruyan (MP+1): 70,027 (14 bb)
smokesy118 (LP): 77,327 (15 bb)
sandro1806 (CO): 187,715 (38 bb)
Denblanch (BU): 132,371 (26 bb)
III PRO III (SB): 89,028 (18 bb)
Hero (BB): 142,214 (28 bb)

Pre-Flop: (13,125) Hero is BB with 7 7
6 players fold, Denblanch (BU) raises to 10,000, 1 fold, Hero (BB) 3-bets to 141,589 (all-in), Denblanch (BU) calls 121,746 (all-in)

Main question is: is it the right move to go all-in? would a small 3bet be better? Main reason I shove is because it's hard to play out of position with small pocket pair and it may be interpreted as weak.

Do we know anything about Denblanch? What are his stats? What play style? What has he been min raising his button with prior to this? With an Unknown player min opening the button in an unopened pot on average the range is wide.. I would lean towards a 3x 3 bet of 30,000 mainly for the fact you having close to 30 bigs. You can 3 bet and get 4 bet and fold. Or he flats the 3 bet and if you smash flop check let him hang em self. You whiff flop easy fold, or best case he folds to 3bet. I understand why people don't like playing oop with a small pocket pair, however it's actually pretty easy to play this hand oop you just have to know when you're beat. As any hand goes the more details and the more information we have the easier the hand is.
 
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I played 30 hands with BU player Denblanch, he played 9 hands in that time, including this one. I did not have a handtracker on at the time, but he played solid and opened more in LP than EP.

It might seem like a simple hand, but for me this might plug a leak. Since I shoved and should have 3betted smaller instead. We were already in the money and the turbo structure would have provided more profit simply by not risking my whole stack in spots like these and being more patient and rise in the payout level that way.
 
MemphisGrind

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I played 30 hands with BU player Denblanch, he played 9 hands in that time, including this one. I did not have a handtracker on at the time, but he played solid and opened more in LP than EP.

It might seem like a simple hand, but for me this might plug a leak. Since I shoved and should have 3betted smaller instead. We were already in the money and the turbo structure would have provided more profit simply by not risking my whole stack in spots like these and being more patient and rise in the payout level that way.


GL moving forwards and keep posting hand Analysis great way to plug leaks.
 
liuouhgkres

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OP, by default you played correctly. BU should open around 50-60% of the time, a lot of players open even more from btn. Most of those hands have 45% against 77, by 3-betting allin you are denying him his equity. I don't like small 3-bet, because I don't want to get called, and at these stakes you will get called a lot. You played correctly, it was not a mistake. If you villain had better hand, you were just unlucky.
 
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Just check if villain opens 40% hand and only calls with TT+, AQs+,AKo against your shove where your 77 has 34% equity. Still high +EV move,

your hand gives me some color how to play small pocket pairs in similar spot going forward.
 
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Thanks for the replies!

fyi: he called with KQo
 
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I like shoving here. A smaller 3bet isn’t that great of an idea. Its too tough playing 77 oop with only then about 19-20 bbs left.

If middle or early position raised I would lean towards just calling. Button its definitely towards shoving.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I don't think a shove is bad, and in fact can be the best play given certain dynamics. In general the weaker I feel I am vs the field, and the button the more likely I am to shove and just hope to take it down pre or win a flip. The smaller my skill edge the more OK I am with flips.

However, since I expect to be one of the best players in the field in a $2.20 I think I'm inclined to actually just flat preflop and play a somewhat underrepped hand for it's intrinsic value. Easy to check fold on QTK type flops and has a lot of value on Q55 or 458 type flops.

I think 3b and folding to a jam is the worst option; we commit too much of our stack with a hand that is often ahead and folds all it's equity.

I'm trying to figure out at what stack size jamming is clearly the best play....I think at 18bb and less jamming is probably ideal. between 18-25 I think you can have some jams and some flats based on different variables. I think 25bb+ I'm mostly flatting unless I'm outclassed at the table. Somewhere around 50+bb I'll start 3b folding a hand this strong in a spot like this. These are very rough "zones"
 
MemphisGrind

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I don't think a shove is bad, and in fact can be the best play given certain dynamics. In general the weaker I feel I am vs the field, and the button the more likely I am to shove and just hope to take it down pre or win a flip. The smaller my skill edge the more OK I am with flips.

However, since I expect to be one of the best players in the field in a $2.20 I think I'm inclined to actually just flat preflop and play a somewhat underrepped hand for it's intrinsic value. Easy to check fold on QTK type flops and has a lot of value on Q55 or 458 type flops.

I think 3b and folding to a jam is the worst option; we commit too much of our stack with a hand that is often ahead and folds all it's equity.

I'm trying to figure out at what stack size jamming is clearly the best play....I think at 18bb and less jamming is probably ideal. between 18-25 I think you can have some jams and some flats based on different variables. I think 25bb+ I'm mostly flatting unless I'm outclassed at the table. Somewhere around 50+bb I'll start 3b folding a hand this strong in a spot like this. These are very rough "zones"

OP has close to 30 bigs. Why do you feel a flat is better than a small 3bet?

3 betting gives you the option for folds a percentage of the time, it strengthens our perceived range. and allows us to get away pre to a 4bet.

I understand your point about being the better player and playing your hand underepped, however from my experience at these stakes (which isn't much) is that these players once they commit money to the pot they aren't folding, so flatting and allowing them in with more of their range is just creating a chance to be out flopped a higher percentage of the time.

What I was attempting to portray in my reply to OP was almost a hybird stop and go strategy where the only fold comes on a board like AKJ or something in that ball park. All other boards are played standard stop and go.

I feel like 30 bb is WAY to many bb to shove pre. the stack still has tons of playability and of course would be easier if we knew how much fold equity we had, but again in the micro's usually not much.

I agree these are tough zones that's why I'm trying to get more clarity, because it may uncover a leak in my game.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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OP has close to 30 bigs. Why do you feel a flat is better than a small 3bet? A small 3bet can be just barely OK if we are inducing a light shove that we plan to call off. It has to be the exact right type of villain who can at least sometimes get it in bad worse than a flip. So he has to be sometimes shoving A5 and 66 etc. in addition to his monsters. I don't think too many of those players generally exist. The problem with this is if we're willing to get it in vs a "crazy player" who will 4bet jam too much he's actually gonna be flipping against us a ton. rarely will we have him in bad shape. So, if we're just gonna take a flip anyways....I'd rather be the one shoving so that i'm flipping with fold equity.


3 betting gives you the option for folds a percentage of the time, it strengthens our perceived range. and allows us to get away pre to a 4bet.

I understand your point about being the better player and playing your hand underepped, however from my experience at these stakes (which isn't much) is that these players once they commit money to the pot they aren't folding, so flatting and allowing them in with more of their range is just creating a chance to be out flopped a higher percentage of the time.
you just said that once they commit money they aren't folding (which isn't exactly true they'll fold to a big enough raise....but eventually a jam is better than a raise that big). so then why would raising change our chances of being outflopped? You did notice that we are the BB and close the action so this will be a HU flop?

What I was attempting to portray in my reply to OP was almost a hybird stop and go strategy where the only fold comes on a board like AKJ or something in that ball park. All other boards are played standard stop and go.

I feel like 30 bb is WAY to many bb to shove pre. the stack still has tons of playability and of course would be easier if we knew how much fold equity we had, but again in the micro's usually not much.
I agree the stack has tons of playability. that's why I prefer to flat instead of 3b a hand like this. I'm generally going to make better post flop decisions than they are. I want to see as many flops as I can with a 28bb stack size and I limit my future ability to see different flops if 3bet fold myself down to 19bb or if I 3bet call off and lose a flip and I'm out.

By flatting now I can see a flop HU with a medium-strong hand for 1bb. By the time I call a lot of Cbets I have invested maybe only a total of 3-4bb in the hand. maybe I get to the river for 3-4bb and realize the full equity of my hand, maybe I pick off a bluff from a trashy draw that would have folded preflop to my 3bet. I keep my options open this way and give myself more decision points to make better decisions than them.

I agree these are tough zones that's why I'm trying to get more clarity, because it may uncover a leak in my game.


my other replies to your questions are above in red.

It is my strong opinion that 3b folding a hand this strong off a stack this small is suicide. First of all, if we 3b too small we get called by nearly everything. What is the point in playing an inflated pot OOP with no fold equity and a marginal hand that doesn't hit many flops? So we have to raise big enough that he'll fold at least sometimes. He's not gonna fold AQ no matter what and that's fine...but can we get hands like J8o to fold? we benefit from the equity denial of getting those trahsy 2 overs hands to fold.

I think we need to typically raise something like 3.0-4.0x to get some folds when it's BB vs BTN. So we would need to 3bet to 6bb-8bb. let's call it 7 for a round number. at 28bb that's 25% of our stack. Now if he shoves his total stack of 26bb the pot has 34.5bb and it costs us 19bb more to call. getting pot odds of 1.8:1 we need 35.7% equity to continue. Given a fairly tight 4b jam range of JJ+ and AQ+ we have 39% equity and should call. and that's vs a TIGHT range. if he has any bluffy hands or likes to inclue AJ or KQ or A5s then our equity is even higher. 3b folding here is a HUGE leak, IMO.


These are great questions. I love having in depth discussions like this. NERD OUT TIME! :D
 
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MemphisGrind

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My Original posts are blue yours are black and bold my responses are red. I feel like I'm understanding your limp a little more, but once we define the range a little better finding out if we get a fold from button enough will settle the score on limping vs. 3 bet. I must admit this is quite fun diving into a hand like this. I try and learn every chance I get.


It is my strong opinion that 3b folding a hand this strong off a stack this small is suicide."First of all, if we 3b too small we get called by nearly everything." I agree my original comment 3x was the suggestion. What is the point in playing an inflated pot OOP with no fold equity and a marginal hand that doesn't hit many flops?Again I completely agree and agreed from the start I would never suggest a small 3 bet with such a marginal hand because it's putting extra bb in with no real plan other than wasting bb the point of the 3 bets are to get hands like J/8 - Q/J, K/10 - K/Q, 9/10 s, and A/5-A/10 to fold this is my opinion based on no stats from OP and we get 4 bet by A/Ks & QQ+ IMO My ranges would vary massively if I had stats. I usually consider unknown players to play TAG unless proven otherwise. Which narrows the range to 66-10's AJ, AQ, AKo that flats the 3bet "So we have to raise big enough that he'll fold at least sometimes. He's not gonna fold AQ no matter what and that's fine...but can we get hands like J8o to fold?" As stated above I believe so. Players at this stage of a tournament have fought there way and are trying to open and play a cheap pot or get folds they don't like getting 3 bet and having to defend with marginal hands. we benefit from the equity denial of getting those trahsy 2 overs hands to fold.

"I think we need to typically raise something like 3.0-4.0x to get some folds when it's BB vs BTN. So we would need to 3bet to 6bb-8bb. let's call it 7 for a round number. at 28bb that's 25% of our stack." This is what I was proposing and I understand that it is 25% of our stack but based on the above reasons of added value from a fold by the button I believe it's worth it again I am up for argument here because I feel I can be persuaded against this I'm just still leaning towards it being profitable in the long run. "Now if he shoves his total stack of 26bb the pot has 34.5bb and it costs us 19bb more to call. getting pot odds of 1.8:1 we need 35.7% equity to continue. Given a fairly tight 4b jam range of JJ+ and AQ+ we have 39% equity and should call. and that's vs a TIGHT range. if he has any bluffy hands or likes to inclue AJ or KQ or A5s then our equity is even higher. 3b folding here is a HUGE leak, IMO." I would be interested in knowing why you feel folding to the 4 bet is a huge leak I see we are a little bit off on our range evaluation and that is fair because neither one of us knows the player so we are coming from a guesttimation on range. You feel the jam range includes JJ and AQ I don't.. definitely don't feel they jam bluffy hands enough to consider that. Again open for more in depth understanding these are just my thoughts.


These are great questions. I love having in depth discussions like this. NERD OUT TIME! :D
I couldn't agree more I quite enjoy in depth discussions.




Originally Posted by MemphisGrind

OP has close to 30 bigs. Why do you feel a flat is better than a small 3bet?A small 3bet can be just barely OK if we are inducing a light shove that we plan to call off. It has to be the exact right type of villain who can at least sometimes get it in bad worse than a flip. So he has to be sometimes shoving A5 and 66 etc. in additiona to his monsters. I don't think too many of those players generally exist. I wasn't pushing for a small 3 bet I was pushing for a standard 3x 3bet to get hands as mentioned above to fold, or allow us to get away from the hand if 4 bet.




I understand your point about being the better player and playing your hand underepped, however from my experience at these stakes (which isn't much) is that these players once they commit money to the pot they aren't folding, so flatting and allowing them in with more of their range is just creating a chance to be out flopped a higher percentage of the time. you just said that once they commit money they aren't folding (which isn't exactly true they'll fold to a big enough raise....but eventually a jam is better than a raise that big). so then why would raising change our chances of being outflopped?You did notice that we are the BB and close the action so this will be a HU flop? I agree that this part of my comment made no sense I think it's because I didn't re-read OP hand and see where everyone was located position wise. I will redact this portion.

What I was attempting to portray in my reply to OP was almost a hybird stop and go strategy where the only fold comes on a board like AKJ or something in that ball park. All other boards are played standard stop and go.

I feel like 30 bb is WAY to many bb to shove pre. the stack still has tons of playability and of course would be easier if we knew how much fold equity we had, but again in the micro's usually not much.I agree the stack has tons of playability. that's why I prefer to flat instead of 3b a hand like this. I'm generally going to make better post flop decisions than they are. I want to see as many flops as I can with a 28bb stack size and I limit my future ability to see flops if 3bet fold myself down to 19bb or if I 3bet call off and lose a flip and I'm out. I understand your reasoning for flatting I think our only differing opinion here is narrowed down to whether or not villain will fold to our 3 bet.

"By flatting now I can see a flop HU with a strong hand for 1bb. I can call a lot of Cbets and have invested maybe only a total of 3-4bb in the hand. maybe I get to the river for 3-4bb and realize the full equity of my hand, maybe I pick off a bluff from a trashy draw that would have folded preflop to my 3bet. I keep my options open this way and give myself more decision points to make better decisions." I just don't see much playability at this stack depth against micro players. and feel like either getting the fold pre or planning to get it in on flop with this stack depth in micros works better. If the hand plays like you described above then yes limping makes tons of sense.




 
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77 is good and strong hand , you should call preflop, and one more time call flop.... and if it normal for you turn, you may push turn
 
Jacki Burkhart

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My Original posts are blue yours are black and bold my responses are red. I feel like I'm understanding your limp a little more, but once we define the range a little better finding out if we get a fold from button enough will settle the score on limping vs. 3 bet. I must admit this is quite fun diving into a hand like this. I try and learn every chance I get.


It is my strong opinion that 3b folding a hand this strong off a stack this small is suicide."First of all, if we 3b too small we get called by nearly everything." I agree my original comment 3x was the suggestion. What is the point in playing an inflated pot OOP with no fold equity and a marginal hand that doesn't hit many flops?Again I completely agree and agreed from the start I would never suggest a small 3 bet with such a marginal hand because it's putting extra bb in with no real plan other than wasting bb the point of the 3 bets are to get hands like J/8 - Q/J, K/10 - K/Q, 9/10 s, and A/5-A/10 to fold this is my opinion based on no stats from OP and we get 4 bet by A/Ks & QQ+ IMO My ranges would vary massively if I had stats. I usually consider unknown players to play TAG unless proven otherwise. Which narrows the range to 66-10's AJ, AQ, AKo that flats the 3bet "So we have to raise big enough that he'll fold at least sometimes. He's not gonna fold AQ no matter what and that's fine...but can we get hands like J8o to fold?" As stated above I believe so. Players at this stage of a tournament have fought there way and are trying to open and play a cheap pot or get folds they don't like getting 3 bet and having to defend with marginal hands. we benefit from the equity denial of getting those trahsy 2 overs hands to fold.

"I think we need to typically raise something like 3.0-4.0x to get some folds when it's BB vs BTN. So we would need to 3bet to 6bb-8bb. let's call it 7 for a round number. at 28bb that's 25% of our stack." This is what I was proposing and I understand that it is 25% of our stack but based on the above reasons of added value from a fold by the button I believe it's worth it again I am up for argument here because I feel I can be persuaded against this I'm just still leaning towards it being profitable in the long run. "Now if he shoves his total stack of 26bb the pot has 34.5bb and it costs us 19bb more to call. getting pot odds of 1.8:1 we need 35.7% equity to continue. Given a fairly tight 4b jam range of JJ+ and AQ+ we have 39% equity and should call. and that's vs a TIGHT range. if he has any bluffy hands or likes to inclue AJ or KQ or A5s then our equity is even higher. 3b folding here is a HUGE leak, IMO." I would be interested in knowing why you feel folding to the 4 bet is a huge leak I see we are a little bit off on our range evaluation and that is fair because neither one of us knows the player so we are coming from a guesttimation on range. You feel the jam range includes JJ and AQ I don't.. definitely don't feel they jam bluffy hands enough to consider that. Again open for more in depth understanding these are just my thoughts.


These are great questions. I love having in depth discussions like this. NERD OUT TIME! :D
I couldn't agree more I quite enjoy in depth discussions.




Originally Posted by MemphisGrind

OP has close to 30 bigs. Why do you feel a flat is better than a small 3bet?A small 3bet can be just barely OK if we are inducing a light shove that we plan to call off. It has to be the exact right type of villain who can at least sometimes get it in bad worse than a flip. So he has to be sometimes shoving A5 and 66 etc. in additiona to his monsters. I don't think too many of those players generally exist. I wasn't pushing for a small 3 bet I was pushing for a standard 3x 3bet to get hands as mentioned above to fold, or allow us to get away from the hand if 4 bet.




I understand your point about being the better player and playing your hand underepped, however from my experience at these stakes (which isn't much) is that these players once they commit money to the pot they aren't folding, so flatting and allowing them in with more of their range is just creating a chance to be out flopped a higher percentage of the time. you just said that once they commit money they aren't folding (which isn't exactly true they'll fold to a big enough raise....but eventually a jam is better than a raise that big). so then why would raising change our chances of being outflopped?You did notice that we are the BB and close the action so this will be a HU flop? I agree that this part of my comment made no sense I think it's because I didn't re-read OP hand and see where everyone was located position wise. I will redact this portion.

What I was attempting to portray in my reply to OP was almost a hybird stop and go strategy where the only fold comes on a board like AKJ or something in that ball park. All other boards are played standard stop and go.

I feel like 30 bb is WAY to many bb to shove pre. the stack still has tons of playability and of course would be easier if we knew how much fold equity we had, but again in the micro's usually not much.I agree the stack has tons of playability. that's why I prefer to flat instead of 3b a hand like this. I'm generally going to make better post flop decisions than they are. I want to see as many flops as I can with a 28bb stack size and I limit my future ability to see flops if 3bet fold myself down to 19bb or if I 3bet call off and lose a flip and I'm out. I understand your reasoning for flatting I think our only differing opinion here is narrowed down to whether or not villain will fold to our 3 bet.

"By flatting now I can see a flop HU with a strong hand for 1bb. I can call a lot of Cbets and have invested maybe only a total of 3-4bb in the hand. maybe I get to the river for 3-4bb and realize the full equity of my hand, maybe I pick off a bluff from a trashy draw that would have folded preflop to my 3bet. I keep my options open this way and give myself more decision points to make better decisions." I just don't see much playability at this stack depth against micro players. and feel like either getting the fold pre or planning to get it in on flop with this stack depth in micros works better. If the hand plays like you described above then yes limping makes tons of sense.






I’m wondering if you read the action wrong or if it’s a terminology thing because you keep saying “limping”. But nobody is limping here. The button raised to 2.0bb. The SB folded and we are in the BB getting 3.5:1 pot odds.

I used to think along the same lines as you. I was uncomfortable playing hands like this OOP from these awkward stack sizes so I would raise them to make my life easier. But I’ve changed my tune now that my post flop skills are much better I’m not afraid to play hands like this and I’m looking to avoid big flips and big pots with marginal hands.

I think for newer players who know they’ll make post flop mistakes then 3b jamming becomes +EV when you consider this spot in a vacuum. That said; how do you ever get better at navigating marginal post flop spots if you don’t ever put yourself in awkward spots to practice?

I still think 3b folding is the worst option. Vs a range of exactly QQ+ and AK we still have 35.9% equity. Which is a breakeven call. That range is ridiculously nitty though. Perhaps with time you’ll adjust your population tendencies in these micros but I’ve played a lot of hands in the micros and button vs BB at 26bb effective I think that’s not a realistic 4b shove range (vs some players yes but we are readless). At a minimum I think AQ is in there. I don’t think they’re folding JJ and I don’t think they’re flatting it either for more than 1/4 their stack.

If we want to get REALLY nerdy we can ponder the value of the fold equity which does add merit to the 3b option and compare that with the value of calling the 4bet vs folding to the 4bet. but to do that we have to make lots of assumptions about ranges and I don’t think you and I are going to agree much on what those button opening ranges look like and which parts fold.
 
MemphisGrind

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I’m wondering if you read the action wrong or if it’s a terminology thing because you keep saying “limping”. But nobody is limping here. The button raised to 2.0bb. The SB folded and we are in the BB getting 3.5:1 pot odds.

I used to think along the same lines as you. I was uncomfortable playing hands like this OOP from these awkward stack sizes so I would raise them to make my life easier. But I’ve changed my tune now that my post flop skills are much better I’m not afraid to play hands like this and I’m looking to avoid big flips and big pots with marginal hands.

I think for newer players who know they’ll make post flop mistakes then 3b jamming becomes +EV when you consider this spot in a vacuum. That said; how do you ever get better at navigating marginal post flop spots if you don’t ever put yourself in awkward spots to practice?

I still think 3b folding is the worst option. Vs a range of exactly QQ+ and AK we still have 35.9% equity. Which is a breakeven call. That range is ridiculously nitty though. Perhaps with time you’ll adjust your population tendencies in these micros but I’ve played a lot of hands in the micros and button vs BB at 26bb effective I think that’s not a realistic 4b shove range (vs some players yes but we are readless). At a minimum I think AQ is in there. I don’t think they’re folding JJ and I don’t think they’re flatting it either for more than 1/4 their stack.

If we want to get REALLY nerdy we can ponder the value of the fold equity which does add merit to the 3b option and compare that with the value of calling the 4bet vs folding to the 4bet. but to do that we have to make lots of assumptions about ranges and I don’t think you and I are going to agree much on what those button opening ranges look like and which parts fold.

"I’m wondering if you read the action wrong or if it’s a terminology thing because you keep saying “limping”. But nobody is limping here. The button raised to 2.0bb. The SB folded and we are in the BB getting 3.5:1 pot odds."

I didn't mean to say limping. I understand that we are flatting. I probably lost context throughout all the typing. Honest mistake when so much thought is going into areas of the hand sometimes I type quicker than I think lol.

"I used to think along the same lines as you. I was uncomfortable playing hands like this OOP from these awkward stack sizes so I would raise them to make my life easier. But I’ve changed my tune now that my post flop skills are much better I’m not afraid to play hands like this and I’m looking to avoid big flips and big pots with marginal hands"

Nor am I... if I was playing this hand at the stakes I play I would play the hand much different.The hard part for me is trying to think of the optimal decision playing in micros. I generally play 500NL and 1000NL it's been about 5 years since I have grinded micro stakes. Live I play 1/3 and 2/5 for Tournaments I generally play my casino's 50K and 100K gurantee's. I don't play all that much online at all. I have been doing a free roll challenge over the last couple of weeks for fun and have gotten a glimpse into the free roll world and am using that as my reference for micro players.

"I think for newer players who know they’ll make post flop mistakes then 3b jamming becomes +EV when you consider this spot in a vacuum. That said; how do you ever get better at navigating marginal post flop spots if you don’t ever put yourself in awkward spots to practice?"

I hear what you're saying, but from what I see at, well... free rolls which is what I'm considering (micro stakes) there isn't much post flop play at this point of the tournament again this is just from what I've seen playing free rolls. When I played in the micros I was terrible at post flop play, that's why I started working with a coach and amped up my studying helping me to learn different lines, and how to profitably play in tricky spots. That's how I got better at navigating marginal post flop spots. but leveling became a huge issue. from what I've seen players at micro level default to aggression when in a tricky spot rather than theory and multi level thinking. Therefor being "better" post flop doesn't amount to much if your moves are not understood by the opponent. It would be like speaking a foreign language to someone they just wouldn't understand.

"I still think 3b folding is the worst option. Vs a range of exactly QQ+ and AK we still have 35.9% equity. Which is a breakeven call. That range is ridiculously nitty though. Perhaps with time you’ll adjust your population tendencies in these micros but I’ve played a lot of hands in the micros and button vs BB at 26bb effective I think that’s not a realistic 4b shove range (vs some players yes but we are readless). At a minimum I think AQ is in there. I don’t think they’re folding JJ and I don’t think they’re flatting it either for more than 1/4 their stack."

No sense in us arguing over ranges when there are no reads. I clearly don't understand how micro players play.

If we want to get REALLY nerdy we can ponder the value of the fold equity which does add merit to the 3b option and compare that with the value of calling the 4bet vs folding to the 4bet. but to do that we have to make lots of assumptions about ranges and I don’t think you and I are going to agree much on what those button opening ranges look like and which parts fold.

My entire hand analysis was based around this premise alone, but as you pointed out there would be a lot of assumptions on ranges and we are off on our assumptions. Therefore I agree.

All in all I get where you are coming from on the flat, but because of my belief that we have fold equity, I felt and still feel it was the optimal play. To the original poster My apologies for the line I chose, I honestly gave the advice believing wholeheartedly it was the optimal play. Now if we had ANY sort of reads this wouldn't of even been a discussion.

I do appreciate the conversation we have had Miss Jacki and look forwards to having many more. I'm still following your challenge. If you want stop by and check mine out. The free roll world is a completely different monster.
 
TenJack

TenJack

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This is just my opinion, coming from a cash game background. But i can see that a 3-bet here is a mistake.

Just to start, whenever I am HU with a short-stack, i keep my 3-bet range very polarized. I am 3-betting stuff like K4o and large pairs as opposed to hands like AT, 66,77. The reason here is that if we get jammed on with K4 we have an easy fold, as well as an easy call with QQ-AA. If we hold something like 77 and get jammed on, its an Uggghh spot.

If we make a respectable size, ie. 7,8,9 BB, we are going to be sitting on a 20BB remaining stack. If he just calls, we are OOP with whats probably going to be middle pair on the flop. We then either have to c-fold to avoid more expenditure, or we bet/jam as a bluff and now basically are playing for stacks. Yikes.

So, I think its either a flat call to set mine (if we do hit then we are guaranteed 2.5 BB, which sounds like nothing but is gold in later stages of turbos.) or a jam. I like what you did here.
 
P

Pokerblitz

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Wow, thanks for the in depth analysis folks!

This is very informative, I wasn't expecting this.

I'm not even a month on this forum, but it's really nice to see how active and serious members are here, much appreciated! :top:
 
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