$2.20 NLHE MTT Rebuy: $2.20 1000gtd Easy TURN DECISION

theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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This tourney runs early and is one I play regularly when I'm able.

This event has four hours of late registration, with a starting stack of 35k, but I will only play this event if I can get in early. Their are too many runners that try to get in with about a 20bb stack and make a run, and I don't like being in that situation unless I have a healthy stack and the buy-in is relative small compared to the prize pool.

We are relatively early in the event at 500/1000 - one hour has elapsed and I have
a stack of 85k.

For the purposes of this review I will be using big blinds.

I open UTG+2 :jc4::jh4: 2.4bb
Btn calls my open 2.4bb Btn stack size is 95bb
BB also calls my open 2.4bb BB stack size is 35bb

Pot size headed into the flop 8.7bb

Flop is :7d4::kc4::js4:

BB check and I bet 2.94bb. I intentionally bet small - hoping to get one of the opponents to raise. I did not plan to re-raise on the flop - rather I wanted to get as much in as I could on the turn. If I didn't induce a raise I was going to increase my turn & river bet sizes in hopes of making up for this trickery.
To my surprise - the plan works perfectly. The big blind raises to 9.68bb
BB folds and I make the call.

Pot size headed into the turn 28.06bb Our stack size is 72.9bb

Turn card is a :3d4:. The 7 & 3 are both diamonds however I'm completely unconcerned about a flush. Since we have just over 2.5/1 SPR I'm looking to get it in here, 100% confident I have the best hand. We are only losing to one single hand - and I'm nearly absolute in my belief that the opponent does not have KKs.
His range is Q/T, A/K, 77, K/J - maybe if loose A/J.


What would you do in this spot? Donk lead or check raise jam, hoping the opponent bets?
 
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eetenor

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This tourney runs early and is one I play regularly when I'm able.

This event has four hours of late registration, with a starting stack of 35k, but I will only play this event if I can get in early. Their are too many runners that try to get in with about a 20bb stack and make a run, and I don't like being in that situation unless I have a healthy stack and the buy-in is relative small compared to the prize pool.

We are relatively early in the event at 500/1000 - one hour has elapsed and I have
a stack of 85k.

For the purposes of this review I will be using big blinds.

I open UTG+2 :jc4::jh4: 2.4bb
Btn calls my open 2.4bb Btn stack size is 95bb
BB also calls my open 2.4bb BB stack size is 35bb

Pot size headed into the flop 8.7bb

Flop is :7d4::kc4::js4:

BB check and I bet 2.94bb. I intentionally bet small - hoping to get one of the opponents to raise. I did not plan to re-raise on the flop - rather I wanted to get as much in as I could on the turn. If I didn't induce a raise I was going to increase my turn & river bet sizes in hopes of making up for this trickery.
To my surprise - the plan works perfectly. The big blind raises to 9.68bb
BB folds and I make the call.

Pot size headed into the turn 28.06bb Our stack size is 72.9bb

Turn card is a :3d4:. The 7 & 3 are both diamonds however I'm completely unconcerned about a flush. Since we have just over 2.5/1 SPR I'm looking to get it in here, 100% confident I have the best hand. We are only losing to one single hand - and I'm nearly absolute in my belief that the opponent does not have KKs.
His range is Q/T, A/K, 77, K/J - maybe if loose A/J.


What would you do in this spot? Donk lead or check raise jam, hoping the opponent bets?


Thank you for posting

I am assuming that you have not been LAG at the table recently therefore our V should see you as TAG with a big stack- stack size does matter.:rolleyes:

As played. Our V has no reason to think we missed this flop when we call we are TAG.

I think you said it well- we would be hoping our V will bet not knowing they will.
There are far more combos of weak made hands and draws that check turn than strong bet turn- call off check raise- hands. Kx should check back turn vs a TAG at this stack depth.

If we lead -all the sets raise -all the draws call- AJ calls one time often Kx calls one time or raises(V dependent) We do not want a check back ever because we have to worry about a value killer river card.
Any diamond Q T 9 A J 8 slows both us and our V down.
The diamond turn card is very good for us to make a block type bet of 30% vs a decent V they might think we have AJdd and are trying to slow them down. If they have KXdd they may raise a block size bet as well.

We are trying to get stacks in on turn or build the pot so that we get a good return on a 60% river bet as we can be bluffing that size.

If your player pool has been miss using the 1bb bet this would be a great spot for you to lead that size if the V leans aggro
If your player pool miss bets thin value with pot size bets we can pot or pot+ here as well.
This bet will only fold out the weakest part of the standard V's range they will call the Kx the diamond draws and straight draws and they may now have a combo draw that they shove. V dependent of course.

As to how you played the hand- often at these limits your V over play by 3 betting thin value hands on the flop when they are the preflop raiser but trap stronger hands. Even the TAG players do this. Then only the weaker players are aggressive on turn with weaker holdings.
Assuming you have been signaling TAG skill level- delaying our agg to the turn signals to our V that we are very strong if they are skilled. Unless of course we can replicate a weak players actions as suggested above and the V is not skilled.

The bet sizing this V chose on flop suggests that they have some skill. I would replicate my weaker V's tendencies vs a skilled V and 3 bet flop not call -trap flop. I would use smallish sizing though to entice the KX calls.
As we are blocking with the JJ we really cannot count on them having the Jx and if they do and fold it that is fine we are trying to stack a sticky Kx hand or get max value from a draw or sets.

Hope this helps

:):)
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
Obviously a standard open.

Flop
I would not use the thought proces, that a small size will induce a raise here. I think, thats generally not true given the dry texture of the board and the fact, its a multiway pot. With middle set we block a lot of second pair combos, which might be sensitive to sizing, but we unblock top pair and draws, which are generally going to call any reasonable flop bet. And for that reason I like to use a big sizing and basically hope, one of them has something good enough to play a big pot.

You do get raised though, and thats obviously great. I dont think, people at this limit are ever raising for value and then folding to a 3-bet, and if he has the QT draw, he is also going to pay. So I would click it back here to either induce him to get it in right now, or set it up for an easy turn shove. I dont want to use the absolute top of my range as a bluff catcher, donk leading the turn is just weird, and I dont want to potentially give him two free cards to complete his QT or some random gutshot or backdoor draw.

Turn
As played I would go for a check-jam line now.
 
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Lochika

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I would bet bigger on the flop to extract more value from the opponent, wich their calling range gonne be a bit stronger then normal so we can charge more chips.
On the turn, since the 3 isn't changing that much, I would go with check call. If I knew what is the river I would have told you mt opinion on that too, but generally on dry once check shove and with once that completing the opponnent draws (A,Q,T,9) I would just call (most of the time).
 
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eetenor

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leading the turn is just weird, and I dont want to potentially give him two free cards to complete his QT

Turn
As played I would go for a check-jam line now

.


Thank you for posting
As always you share effective strategy considerations.

The weirdness of the turn lead is a positive element for us using it for the reason you state above- once we just call flop.
Why? The V becomes unsure of what to do- when our V are unsure they make bigger mistakes.

When we check Jam turn that is such a standard play when strong at this stake level that either the V -who may have skill- as the bet sizing they chose on flop seems to indicate- will not bet or will bet small and fold on turn. This means they are likely to make only a small mistake here on the turn which means they do not make any river mistakes when they fold turn or check fold river or call when they beat us. Our ROI is increased when we make our V make mistakes.

If the V has skill they may know that vs KK- a hand many players trap with here- that even a combo draw flush and straight QTdd only has 30% equity on the turn. Also because of stack sizes and how dry the board was and our HERO plays TAG poker we really should not be getting a check jam opportunity from a player with skill-that will get us full value on the Jam. The turn card does not improve a TAG player to a hand that Kx or KJ beats and that would check shove this deep.

Of course if the V does not recognize any of the above data then they will also not fold QToff -a hand they will check turn with at a high frequency- when we lead pot instead of checking.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Assuming you have been signaling TAG skill level- delaying our agg to the turn signals to our V that we are very strong if they are skilled. Unless of course we can replicate a weak players actions as suggested above and the V is not skilled.

The bet sizing this V chose on flop suggests that they have some skill. I would replicate my weaker V's tendencies vs a skilled V and 3 bet flop not call -trap flop. I would use smallish sizing though to entice the KX calls.
As we are blocking with the JJ we really cannot count on them having the Jx and if they do and fold it that is fine we are trying to stack a sticky Kx hand or get max value from a draw or sets.

Hope this helps

:):)

Thanks for your input E. I'm pretty certain I had only played 5-6 hands up to this point - so yes - I was playing TAG - however I believe the villain had just joined the table within the last 5-6 hands - so he had not been around to see my play style. I'm certain this was the first hand I played with him on the table.

Preflop
Obviously a standard open.

Flop
I would not use the thought proces, that a small size will induce a raise here. I think, thats generally not true given the dry texture of the board and the fact, its a multiway pot. With middle set we block a lot of second pair combos, which might be sensitive to sizing, but we unblock top pair and draws, which are generally going to call any reasonable flop bet. And for that reason I like to use a big sizing and basically hope, one of them has something good enough to play a big pot.

You do get raised though, and thats obviously great. I dont think, people at this limit are ever raising for value and then folding to a 3-bet, and if he has the QT draw, he is also going to pay. So I would click it back here to either induce him to get it in right now, or set it up for an easy turn shove. I dont want to use the absolute top of my range as a bluff catcher, donk leading the turn is just weird, and I dont want to potentially give him two free cards to complete his QT or some random gutshot or backdoor draw.

Turn
As played I would go for a check-jam line now.



I would bet bigger on the flop to extract more value from the opponent, wich their calling range gonne be a bit stronger then normal so we can charge more chips.
On the turn, since the 3 isn't changing that much, I would go with check call. If I knew what is the river I would have told you mt opinion on that too, but generally on dry once check shove and with once that completing the opponnent draws (A,Q,T,9) I would just call (most of the time).



Thanks for all input. It seems there is merit in clicking it back on the flop - however in the past - I seem to loose the customers when I do this - and miss out on additional value on later streets. So instead of clicking it back on the flop - I will usually check raise on the turn - or check call - lead jam on the river. This provides max value allowing the opponent to continue his/her thought they are winning.

I really don't know why I decided to bet small to induce a raise - a little devil I guess - I was surprised it worked. Again - I think in my player pool - small bets are abnormal (except from the fishy passive min-betters) - and it confuses players. They are OFTEN re-raising me on the flop with bottom pair Ace kicker - or some other such nonsense, and I will get a larger return at the end of the hand.

So I put the villain on a King - and figured he was never folding so I check jammed the turn.

Yep - villain turns over K/J

And the river is the exactly what we all expect. Another F@!#$ King.

This is certainly getting old. :mad::ahhhhh::ahhhhh:but I can't fault the opponent - he wrongly assumed he was ahead.
 
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eetenor

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Thanks for your input E. I'm pretty certain I had only played 5-6 hands up to this point - so yes - I was playing TAG - however I believe the villain had just joined the table within the last 5-6 hands - so he had not been around to see my play style. I'm certain this was the first hand I played with him on the table.

Thanks for all input. It seems there is merit in clicking it back on the flop - however in the past - I seem to loose the customers when I do this - and miss out on additional value on later streets. So instead of clicking it back on the flop - I will usually check raise on the turn - or check call - lead jam on the river. This provides max value allowing the opponent to continue his/her thought they are winning.

I really don't know why I decided to bet small to induce a raise - a little devil I guess - I was surprised it worked. Again - I think in my player pool - small bets are abnormal (except from the fishy passive min-betters) - and it confuses players. They are OFTEN re-raising me on the flop with bottom pair Ace kicker - or some other such nonsense, and I will get a larger return at the end of the hand.

So I put the villain on a King - and figured he was never folding so I check jammed the turn.

Yep - villain turns over K/J

And the river is the exactly what we all expect. Another F@!#$ King.

This is certainly getting old. :mad::ahhhhh::ahhhhh:but I can't fault the opponent - he wrongly assumed he was ahead.

As always you are thinking about multiple possible actions based on the exploits available at this stake level and that is great.

There is nothing wrong with the small lead flop if it makes your player pool attack it, in fact it is a great way to build a pot while not giving away your hand strength.

If your V are folding too often to the click back then you are right to not use it. If instead the V are over playing turn your check jam turn is the better choice.

The data you will be looking for going forward is the frequency with which your V continue betting turn with range not just with a K. Vs standard weak players they will not fold a K but are you losing value vs QT- are you not stealing pots from JT when you have AQ which could also be a small bet -call if your V are raising bottom pair. Followed by a lead bet 40% pot turn- shove river as a bluff vs folding players.


While there are many players who will never fold bottom pair it is not all players. One of the most important notes I take on V is will they fold. If they will I find those few spots to take the pot away. In order to do this I have to replicate my value actions with my bluff actions. If I am always check jamming turn getting called I can never bluff like that.
At the lower stakes you need to show your table V a value line that you can then use as a bluff as well. You can then bluff noted folders with that line. So had you changed your value line here to lead turn vs a V never folding a K then your table V would have seen that you had that line.

When we know our V are behind and are never folding we want to advertise for our bluffs.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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