$2.20 NLHE MTT: Q9s with combo draw - 3Bet pot

[yomarianob]

pokerstars, $1.96 + $0.24 - Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (40 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

rodion775 (UTG): 12,841 (43 bb)
yomarianob (UTG+1): 21,406 (71 bb)
thevrspoker (MP): 24,925 (83 bb)
rikviza13 (MP+1): 10,164 (34 bb)
dulguun324 (LP): 24,588 (82 bb)
zyabEL (CO): 31,242 (104 bb)
masato1231 (BU): 17,400 (58 bb)
chapman144 (SB): 7,588 (25 bb)
Alen1397 (BB): 10,754 (36 bb)

Pre-Flop: (810) Hero (yomarianob) is UTG+1 with Q♦ 9♦
1 fold, yomarianob (UTG+1) raises to 600, 2 players fold, dulguun324 (LP) 3-bets to 1,899, 4 players fold, yomarianob (UTG+1) calls 1,299

Flop: (4,608) T♦ 3♦ 8♣ (2 players)
yomarianob (UTG+1) checks, dulguun324 (LP) bets 2,534, yomarianob (UTG+1) raises to 6,900, dulguun324 (LP) raises to 22,649 (all-in), yomarianob (UTG+1) calls 12,567 (all-in)

Turn: (43,542) 2♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (43,542) 4♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 43,542

Showdown:
dulguun324 (LP) shows J♣ J♠ (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 67%, Flop: 52%, Turn: 70%, River: 100%)

yomarianob (UTG+1) shows Q♦ 9♦ (high card, Queen)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 33%, Flop: 48%, Turn: 30%, River: 0%)

dulguun324 (LP) wins 43,542

I wanted to know what you think of this hand. Mainly about the call to 3Bet and also about the check-raise and its sizing.

I have only 29 hands on villain (VPIP:41 PFR:18 3Bet:14)

Thanks in advance!!

 

[yoejslattery]

Where are you in the tournament? That is usually the catalyst behind a lot of pre-flop decisions. Not a call I would routinely make especially OOP.

After the flop, I think you have enough equity to go with it.

 

[Jon Poker]

For me this hand is a mess and this is why.

Opening Q9s is way too loose from EP at a full table because you are likely going to run into stronger hands so this is mistake number one.

We do run into a bigger hand who 3bets - mistake number 2 is we call. It's a suited one gapper near the bottom of our range, it plays terrible post flop, has no showdown value and we are rarely ever going to flop well with it so calling is burning chips most of the time - this means its time to ditch our poor decision to open right here right now and move on - but we dont so we see the flop.

We actually do flop well with the combo draw - so we check and decide to check-raise in this spot - this is mistake #3. I am all for us check-raising our really good draws and our worst draws...but NOT in a 3bet pot. If the pot was raised and just called - sure we can check raise - but we def dont want to be check raising the aggressor in a 3bet pot with Qhi and a draw. When we check raise the aggressor on a flop like this the only hands that are going to play back at us are hands that crush us...made sets and overpairs - both of which should be charging us for any draws we may have. So instead of check calling and seeing a cheap turn we can easily fold to blanks on and move forward conserving chips - we get jammed on, now we have to call it off - we ARE up against an overpair and it happens to be the worst one, so we are immediately down 2 outs. We brick the turn and river busting when we didnt have to.

So summary - fold Q9s from EP, only open raise with it from the CO or BTN - do NOT call with Q9s when facing a 3bet - do not check raise the aggressor in a 3 bet pot when we have a major draw - we do NOT want to get jammed on if possible - we need to see a turn at the cheapest possible price so we can try and realize our equity without risking our tournament life.

More often than not, in this exact scenario you are going to run into a made hand more often not. Do not overplay your draws, conserve good sized stacks and play your best!

 

[fundiver199]

we ARE up against an overpair and it happens to be the worst one, so we are immediately down 2 outs.

Its kind of a detail, but this was the best overpair, we could be up against, since we had an overcard, and he had no diamond. Other than that I agree with your analysis especially preflop. Opening Q9s is not the end of the world, but calling a 3-bet out of position puts us in a bad spot, we should just avoid. Just as a pure default, if a hand is already a marginal open, then its surely bottom of our range, and then we should never call a 3-bet, unless its completely undersized.

Postflop I dont hate the check-raise quite as much, as you do. Preflop 3-better will be C-betting quite a few AK, AQ type hands, that missed this board, and making those fold is valuable. It is high variance though, and therefore perhaps better suited to cash games, where a chip is a chip, and we just reload, if we lose.

Assuming that we started this tournament with 15/30 blinds and a 3.000 or 5.000 chip stack, then we had already build up a nice stack, and risking all of that on a coin flip has significant ICM implications. But then again, if we just fold preflop, we dont even have to make a decision on the flop.

 

[Jon Poker]

Not to be nit picky but Q being live only gives us 3 outs where as all the Jacks gave us 4 outs if we are up against say QQ+ so we have more outs with the open ender than we do if our Q is live.

Edit:: this would all be true aside from since our Q is live we pickup 3 outs...so we lose 2 from JJ but we gain 3 giving us a total of 9 outs instead of 8. My brain apparantly doesnt function in the morning. So you are absolutely correct fundiver - best overpair possible. Gives us an extra out

 

[Veritas]

fold pre
Q9 is not a Hand we want to Play OOP in a 3bet pot


I'm not a big fan of the 3bet either. we don't have the nut fd and only a gutshot. just call and see if we improve. calling the 4bet shove for 70bb is not worth it

 

[yomarianob]

Thanks to all for your answers! I see the hand more clear now.

About opening Q9s in EP, I think it's not that bad, since I am playing micro-limits MTTs and I'm trying to be more loose with my open ranges (but I shouldn't be calling to 3bets with these hands).

I should have just folded to the 3Bet pre flop, specially OOP.. As played, I should have called flop to fold turn/river. I liked the check-raise, but I didn't think about it's a 3Bet pot, makes a lot of sense haha.

About the questions, this is still early in the tournament (late reg still open) and the starting stack is 10.000.

Thanks again!

 

[QA77]

I think this hand is fine. You can fold preflop but don’t think its a horrible open. The 3bet is a little on the smaller side so seeing a flop seems ok. If the 3bet was around 7.5x, I’d fold. On the flop, it’s either a call or a raise. If you’re not folding on the turn once you miss, I’d check raise the flop and hope he folds his Ax hands. This is just my opinion

 

[yomarianob]

Thanks for your answer QA77. I also think the 3bet is a bit smaller and that's why I called, but it's not a good call after all.

I'm a recent member of LearnProPoker and just asked the coach (Ryan Laplante) about this hand. He told me that the open is a bit loose but ok, then he would fold to 3bet because the opponent range seems too strong... Postflop seemed correct for him, told me to stack off in the flop.

 

[rj_montana]

Fold pre and definitely fold to the 3-bet. I like the c/r on the flop more than a lead and re-raise all in. With the c/r he at least has to think about it but you're practically always drawing.

 

[Jon Poker]

About opening Q9s in EP, I think it's not that bad, since I am playing micro-limits MTTs and I'm trying to be more loose with my open ranges (but I shouldn't be calling to 3bets with these hands).

It's even worse opening this hand playing in the micros! Why? Because opponents are going to call us much wider with hands that beat us (K8+, A5+) and we are already OOP. Just because you are playing the lowest stakes does not justify opening looser than normal - this is the baseline for a losing strategy I promise. Bad habit to get into my friend, I would advise you to stay away from getting too loose in the micros. You will lose way more chips than you will gain. Plus typically the players in the micros either play every hand - or only the BEST hands - both of which are not good vs Q9s OOP.

When grinding the micros I would advise you to only play your best hands and play general ABC poker. The competition will make enough mistakes to where you wont have to do anything fancy to beat them. There will be no need to open wide with Q9s when you can open AQ and QJ is going to pay you off instead of crushing you, or AJo is going to 4bet jam into your AK. The point is these are generally the games with the worst players in them, exploit them by playing good hands and charging them for their marginal junk instead of being exploitable and opening too wide from certain spots. Good luck at your games!

 

[yomarianob]

Thanks Jon!

What I meant is that I want to play more post flop with weak players, since I'm trying to improve mi skills post flop and want to take advantage of opponents mistakes. I didn't mean to be very loose with my opens, just a bit outside of GTO (I'm opening Q9s, not Q6s or so), with hands that flop well like suited high hands.

That said, I totally see your point and I take your advise. It was a bad open afterall and loose, but my biggest mistake is calling a 3Bet here I think.

 

[fundiver199]

It's even worse opening this hand playing in the micros! Why? Because opponents are going to call us much wider with hands that beat us (K8+, A5+) and we are already OOP.

This is actually a really important point and something, I feel, a lot of people miss. The times, when we can open wider from early position, is when we have a bunch of nits between us and the blinds. Players who will fold, even when they should have called or 3-bet. Then we can almost consider it an early position steal.

However often in the micros and especially in early and mid phase of a tournament, the opposite is the case. We have players behind us, who will call, when they are supposed to fold. And then we should actually play tighter not looser. As you say have AQ, when they incorrectly call their QJ or QT rather than Q9, where we are actually the one, who is dominated on a Q high board.

 

[SuzdalDEcor]

Preflop open fold or fold vs 3bet. It will be funny when you call his all in on the flop and look at AdJd, AdKd, KdJd, AdTd, KdTd xD

 

[frnandoh]

I think you have to be less agressive on early game, excepting on rebuy tournaments where you are looking for a spot like that to push all your chips. Opening that hand so early position is gonna make you have to decide against 3bets very frequently. So when a tournament is no rebuy, play it more carefuly. Example in no rebuy tournament I think you had to call on flop and perhaps on the turn instead raise, you would see all streets and would save about 40BB. It is important too thinking in villain's range to have some idea about where you are walking on.

 

[yomarianob]

I think you have to be less agressive on early game, excepting on rebuy tournaments where you are looking for a spot like that to push all your chips. Opening that hand so early position is gonna make you have to decide against 3bets very frequently. So when a tournament is no rebuy, play it more carefuly. Example in no rebuy tournament I think you had to call on flop and perhaps on the turn instead raise, you would see all streets and would save about 40BB. It is important too thinking in villain's range to have some idea about where you are walking on.

Thanks for answering!

It's a rebuy tournament, with 10k starting stack.