$2.20 NLHE MTT: Poorly Played or Unfortunate Flip?

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sundizzel

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So, I just busted about 3 hands into a tourney, and the circumstances have me a bit tilted...

The tournament has just started, so everyone has about 250 BB. UTG opens 2.5 BB, gets called by UTG+1, and the next 2 players. I am in the CO with KK. I re-raise to 7.5 BB to thin the field out and not go multi-way into the flip. UTG (initial opener) re-raises to 30 BB. It's obvious that he just wants to get it in, so I oblige him and 5-bet shove with my KK. I knew that I was either behind AA or ahead/flipping against anything else. He shows QQ. Flop is irrelevant, turns a third Q for a set, and river is irrelevant. QQQ > KK.

Firstly, what is this guy doing 4-betting to a CO 3-bet, especially with QQ? Secondly, why the hell would he call a 5-bet shove? At this point, I literally only have KK or AA, right? So, what the hell is he doing?

Is this just a case of a guy who is willing to reload 5 times to make it into the money? Or is he just bad, but he managed to win? Or did I play it badly and should've just called his 30 BB 4-bet to see the flop, which didn't help either us, and then tried to resume betting hoping he'd fold? Although, I don't see how he was going to fold, and when the turn came, he certainly was going to be confident in his set, while it would've been a relatively innocuous card from my perspective, perhaps improving something like AQ suited.

Anyways, would appreciate any insight because this just triggered me so much that I want to make sure I'm playing these types of hands the best I can. Thanks in advance.
 
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eetenor

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So, I just busted about 3 hands into a tourney, and the circumstances have me a bit tilted...

The tournament has just started, so everyone has about 250 BB. UTG opens 2.5 BB, gets called by UTG+1, and the next 2 players. I am in the CO with KK. I re-raise to 7.5 BB to thin the field out and not go multi-way into the flip. UTG (initial opener) re-raises to 30 BB. It's obvious that he just wants to get it in, so I oblige him and 5-bet shove with my KK. I knew that I was either behind AA or ahead/flipping against anything else. He shows QQ. Flop is irrelevant, turns a third Q for a set, and river is irrelevant. QQQ > KK.

Firstly, what is this guy doing 4-betting to a CO 3-bet, especially with QQ? Secondly, why the hell would he call a 5-bet shove? At this point, I literally only have KK or AA, right? So, what the hell is he doing?

Is this just a case of a guy who is willing to reload 5 times to make it into the money? Or is he just bad, but he managed to win? Or did I play it badly and should've just called his 30 BB 4-bet to see the flop, which didn't help either us, and then tried to resume betting hoping he'd fold? Although, I don't see how he was going to fold, and when the turn came, he certainly was going to be confident in his set, while it would've been a relatively innocuous card from my perspective, perhaps improving something like AQ suited.

Anyways, would appreciate any insight because this just triggered me so much that I want to make sure I'm playing these types of hands the best I can. Thanks in advance.


Thank U 4 Posting

This is intended as constructive criticism.

You are tilting after the fact about this hand and it demonstrates a mental leak in your game.

You state " I knew that I was either behind AA or ahead/flipping against anything else"

You chose an action your Villain chose their action hand is over.

The hand played out as you expected only one hand was a head of you and your Villain was capable of making a huge preflop mistake.

The V won- hand is over -no need to think about what you could have done in this one hand- no need to let it eat you up- no need to question your skills.

What you do need to think about is?

This is a high variance action preflop so when we bust out of the tournament we know we chose this-again we chose high variance so losing our whole stack was a possibility and we move on.

Jared Tendler wrote "The Mental Game of Poker" Vol 1-2 get these books they will help you understand why you are having an emotional not rational reaction to this hand.

I have been where you are right now. It will effect your play. The above books will help you rid yourself of this mental game leak. They helped me do the same.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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sundizzel

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What you do need to think about is?

Hope this helps
:):)


I was thinking I could've played it better and came here to get recommendations about how the hand was played, not whether you thought my game has a mental leak or not. This didn't help. :)
 
Dejange

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Depending on the BI, tourney format, initial / middle / later stage, and stack size, of course - I am playin pocket KK's in two ways:
- Agressively or
- Patiently, setting a trap, like you played that hand

Here we have early stage, large stacks and opponents still may act aggresively and unrespectfully.
The agro opponent is surelly thought you have AK, AQ, AJ or A10 - eliminating the possibility you had AA or KK. That is explaining his bets further on, upon me.
Now, you took the way to keep him in the hand, but having in mind other callers - I would more likely 3-bet higher preflop, maybe 60-75% of the pot. Just to make sure those before me will fold, and make more pressure to original raiser. Then, I would have a clear flop, and continue raising 2/3rd of pot. He will either call or fold in this situation, I think.

Otherwise, it is just another unlucky hand :top:
 
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sundizzel

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The agro opponent is surelly thought you have AK, AQ, AJ or A10 - eliminating the possibility you had AA or KK. That is explaining his bets further on, upon me.
Now, you took the way to keep him in the hand, but having in mind other callers - I would more likely 3-bet higher preflop, maybe 60-75% of the pot. Just to make sure those before me will fold, and make more pressure to original raiser. Then, I would have a clear flop, and continue raising 2/3rd of pot. He will either call or fold in this situation, I think.


Thanks, this is good advice--my bet sizings are quite static. That being said, of course I didn't want to raise too big because, in a sense, I want to get called by worse, but I also realize taking the pot down pre-flop with no calls is still a good result, especially early in a tournament.
 
vsawake01

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I re-raise to 7.5 BB to thin the field out and not go multi-way into the flip. UTG (initial opener) re-raises to 30 BB
This re-raise exactly means "let's go all-in". Other actions was all-in preparation.

Firstly, what is this guy doing ...
Why you asking about other(unknow) person play?
You played good, you win by equity, this is enough. I faced Q8 and K9 on 4-bet pot (and lost with KK and AA).
 
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I understand your frustration. I feel like I have had a lot of big hands running into bigger hands lately so I get mad when these things happen as well. Looking at the hand though and having time to reflect on it, I think we need to range the UTG player during the hand. We know they are the only opponent that probably has a chance at a monster hand before our actions since all others did not 3 bet but only called behind. Once UTG re raises us then we know they are serious and are almost never bluffing here in a buy in tournament. Therefore I think we can put them on AA, the other KK (unlikely) and QQ with also an outside shot at AK. Given the unlikelihood that it is KK and AK it means we are basically 50/50 in this hand. We suck out against Aces as much as queens suck out against us.

In thinking that this is their only range I dont think I would jam there if I was playing my best. The reasoning is if I am going against AA maybe I find a way to get away from it post (unlikely but maybe) and if it is QQ the villain has will they fold? We cant possibly know that after 3 hands but many villains including myself would probably fold there. So if we are getting the one hand we beat to fold sometimes and getting crushed by the hand we know will call an all in, I think calling may be better in this specific spot. Gets dicey when an ace flops but when a queen flops we can actually walk away here. when nothing flops, K and Q shouldnt flop much if they have Q and we just need to avoid the ace then we can play the flop aggressively. Yes this will lead to the same result when we are going against AA but it will be better against QQ because QQ will fold sometimes pre.

Always tough when in this spot with KK since we know we are way ahead or way behind and no way to usually find out until cards are turned over.
 
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The tournament has just started, so everyone has about 250 BB. UTG opens 2.5 BB, gets called by UTG+1, and the next 2 players. I am in the CO with KK. I re-raise to 7.5 BB to thin the field out and not go multi-way into the flip.

Lets stop right here, because with 4 players already in the pot, a 3x raise is so far from "thinning the field", its not even funny. This is even more the case, when you are 250BB deep, because deep stacks give people great implied odds to try and hit something, that can crack an overpair. With the deep stacks and all the dead money a 3-bet can reasonably be as large as 20BB.

Also when he 4-bet to 30BB, a 5-bet jam is very large, when you are this deep. He actually called it off with worse, but a more correct approach would probably be to go something like 70-75BB. This puts him in a tough spot with hands like AK or QQ, whereas when you jam, some players will actually get away and only give you action with exactly AA or the other KK. Its also an option to not have a 5-betting range and simply call everything including AA and KK. The point here is, that 250BB poker is very different from 100BB poker, and to be honest most MTT players suck at it.

As for the outcome of the hand, you got it in with 80% equity and lost. This will happen in poker, and it does not matter, if it happen in the third hand for 250BB or after 2 hours for 25BB. Actually it can be argued, that its better to bust after 3 hands rather than on the bubble, because then at least you did not spend a lot of time for nothing. If the tournament offer re-enter, then this is the time to use it. Just spend another 2,2$ and play on. There is no point in letting it tilt you or have any regrets, just because you lose a hand :)
 
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sundizzel

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The point here is, that 250BB poker is very different from 100BB poker, and to be honest most MTT players suck at it.


Thanks, Fundiver. This is all great advice, as usual. I was not tilted by the fact that I lost the hand (I lost AA to sets of Queens 3 times last week no problem), but I had this feeling I played the hand completely wrong. You have confirmed that, lol... I have little to no experience this deep-stacked other than the very beginning of tourneys when I have not gotten into such a large hand. Do you have any specific resource recommendations on improving deep stacked play and using appropriate bet sizings?
 
MoryMorte

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So, I just busted about 3 hands into a tourney, and the circumstances have me a bit tilted...

The tournament has just started, so everyone has about 250 BB. UTG opens 2.5 BB, gets called by UTG+1, and the next 2 players. I am in the CO with KK. I re-raise to 7.5 BB to thin the field out and not go multi-way into the flip. UTG (initial opener) re-raises to 30 BB. It's obvious that he just wants to get it in, so I oblige him and 5-bet shove with my KK. I knew that I was either behind AA or ahead/flipping against anything else. He shows QQ. Flop is irrelevant, turns a third Q for a set, and river is irrelevant. QQQ > KK.

Firstly, what is this guy doing 4-betting to a CO 3-bet, especially with QQ? Secondly, why the hell would he call a 5-bet shove? At this point, I literally only have KK or AA, right? So, what the hell is he doing?

Is this just a case of a guy who is willing to reload 5 times to make it into the money? Or is he just bad, but he managed to win? Or did I play it badly and should've just called his 30 BB 4-bet to see the flop, which didn't help either us, and then tried to resume betting hoping he'd fold? Although, I don't see how he was going to fold, and when the turn came, he certainly was going to be confident in his set, while it would've been a relatively innocuous card from my perspective, perhaps improving something like AQ suited.

Anyways, would appreciate any insight because this just triggered me so much that I want to make sure I'm playing these types of hands the best I can. Thanks in advance.



There is no "play it better" you had KK and best thing you can do w/ KK is to get in it preflop against QQ. So, you played it perfectly. Don't mind the results and don't go on tilt because you lost. Poker is a game of long term results and not immediate swings. You will use to these kind of stuff happening all the time so know that you did the best you could and just move on. :)
 
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