$2.20 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: 2k GTD Deep facing turn shove

[theANMATOR]

Hey all. This was an interesting one.

This is a 2k GTD on ACR very deep structure.

25k starting stack which equates to 250bb.
10 minute blinds 30 levels.

We are somewhere into the 2nd hour of play - not exact on when. Nearing first break. I think blinds were 250/500 with 50 ante. For the purposes of this post - it isn't important, we will be using big blinds.

I have 158bb - good for a top 10 chip stack.

Villain has just moved to the table like 3 hands prior and s/he has 150bb. I had not seen how s/he had accumulated his/her chips.
For the purposes of this hand s/he will further on be called he.

Villain limps from CO and I'm holding Q/3 off suit in the bb. Everyone else folds - and I decide to just complete.

Pot is approx. 3bb total.

Flop comes 567 rainbow.

Villain bets just under half pot into this board 1.45bb, and I decide to make the call seeing if I can hit the ass end of the straight. I never even considered bluff raising here because I'm not looking to bluff off any chips at this current stage of the tourney especially since myself and the villain are both sitting with over 150bb.

So the turn brings in the straight - complete rainbow board 7654 and we are holding Q/3 off suit.


What action would you suggest here - leading, check calling, check raising?

 

[puzzlefish]

Check call or check fold for me. Bottom straight rarely produces any value for me by the river. I can't justify leading or raising here, given there is no information about the villain from previous streets and the limp could easily contain any of the upper straight combos.

 

[Badday94]

I would check raise here and if he 4 bets or shoves, I'm out. If he would just call I would hope for a check check on the river. That's my take, I don't know if it's the right action though

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Never raising with junk like this. Free look at the flop sounds great.

Flop
I would have folded. Your hand has very little showdown value, and if you improve, you have a lot of reserve implied odds. So just get rid of this spot and move on to the next hand. As I wrote in another thread recently, you paid nothing to see the flop, and if the opponent had put in a raise preflop, you would have snap folded. So just because you caught a small piece of the board does not mean, you need to continue.

Turn and river
As played check and hope to get to a cheap showdown. If he bet big on both streets, I will fold.

 

[300HPGOD]

Pre flop is a no brainer to me and then on the flop I would fold here since I have no idea where I am in the hand and would need a 4 to even be somewhat comfortable. Even a Q could put me in big trouble if this player limped in with a small to medium pocket pair since they will have a lot of sets which could very easily be the case here.

As played on the turn I would not lead here since it will just make all of villains air fold and we specifically called on the flop I assume to get some implied odds if we hit the 4 so I like check calling the most but if you wanted to check raise I guess I am okay with it but I dont think its as good as check calling. My plan would be to check call the turn and depending on the river card and the opponents bet sizing they made on the turn, I would probably lead the river for what I would take as a value bet. I am not green lighting our spot by any means but we are only losing to 8x at the moment and villain could have 8x in their range but more likely than not they dont. In leading the river if we get raised it would depend on sizing. Obviously if they clicked it back or something like that I would call it to see it but if its any normal size raising I would just fold thinking they would not be raising sets with 4 to a straight on the board and our range as wide as it is.

 

[liuouhgkres]

Agree with fundiver199. Beyond that OP, I don't like your attitude towards bluffs, as if if you can only lose chips with bluffs. It's opposite, bluffs are very profitable in all stages of the game. Not saying you should raise Q3 here, just know that you should have some bluffs pretty much in every spot.

 

[theANMATOR]

Check call or check fold for me. Bottom straight rarely produces any value for me by the river. I can't justify leading or raising here, given there is no information about the villain from previous streets and the limp could easily contain any of the upper straight combos.

Certainly a check call to a reasonable bet would be acceptable here. I concur with your assessment regarding the bottom end of straights, usually, but vs only one limping opponent I'd be calling to a half pot bet here on the turn.

If only I had played it that way. Dang it.

I would check raise here and if he 4 bets or shoves, I'm out. If he would just call I would hope for a check check on the river. That's my take, I don't know if it's the right action though

Interesting line - that would result in a considerable amount of lost chips, but I like the aggression.

Preflop
Never raising with junk like this. Free look at the flop sounds great.

Flop
I would have folded. Your hand has very little showdown value, and if you improve, you have a lot of reserve implied odds. So just get rid of this spot and move on to the next hand. As I wrote in another thread recently, you paid nothing to see the flop, and if the opponent had put in a raise preflop, you would have snap folded. So just because you caught a small piece of the board does not mean, you need to continue.

Turn and river
As played check and hope to get to a cheap showdown. If he bet big on both streets, I will fold.

Yep - I think you are correct here fundiver, although getting to showdown cheaply with a marginal hand would be a good line I think. Its beating a lot of hands that level 1 opponents would 3 barrel - like tptk and even 2 pair. I certainly do fold more often in spots like this - than I do continue. I think chasing gutshots are mostly a losing endeavor.

Pre flop is a no brainer to me and then on the flop I would fold here since I have no idea where I am in the hand and would need a 4 to even be somewhat comfortable. Even a Q could put me in big trouble if this player limped in with a small to medium pocket pair since they will have a lot of sets which could very easily be the case here.

As played on the turn I would not lead here since it will just make all of villains air fold and we specifically called on the flop I assume to get some implied odds if we hit the 4 so I like check calling the most but if you wanted to check raise I guess I am okay with it but I dont think its as good as check calling. My plan would be to check call the turn and depending on the river card and the opponents bet sizing they made on the turn, I would probably lead the river for what I would take as a value bet. I am not green lighting our spot by any means but we are only losing to 8x at the moment and villain could have 8x in their range but more likely than not they dont. In leading the river if we get raised it would depend on sizing. Obviously if they clicked it back or something like that I would call it to see it but if its any normal size raising I would just fold thinking they would not be raising sets with 4 to a straight on the board and our range as wide as it is.

You are so ON THE MONEY with your reply it is scary!

Agree with fundiver199. Beyond that OP, I don't like your attitude towards bluffs, as if if you can only lose chips with bluffs. It's opposite, bluffs are very profitable in all stages of the game. Not saying you should raise Q3 here, just know that you should have some bluffs pretty much in every spot.

Thanks for the reply liuoukgkres. I agree with you regarding bluffs. I mentioned not bluffing here - because it is good to get to show down cheaply with a made hand - if in fact we hit, and we did, so in this instance we want to play small ball with a made hand.
However - I do bluff - when there are spots, even though we need the right opponent to get bluffs through. And this clearly is not a bluffing spot - in my eyes. Thanks for calling me on that though - you are spot on regarding bluffing.


OK so I'm going to justify my DONK ASS thought process for what follows, only because - I played out of character in this hand - and I don't have a great explanation for it.
I've been reading and listening to a lot of content lately - that has been discussing donk leading. For me personally - I have an almost ZERO donk leading range. So - I'm justifying my DONK lead here - because of all the content I have consumed lately - that has been mentioning and talking about donk leading.


So the pot is approximately 5.9 bb. And my dumb butt decides this is the spot I'm going to incorporate a donk leading range. I bet out 3.3, about 65% of pot with our bottom ended straight on the 7654 rainbow board. Our weak holding Q/3 off suit.

To my utter surprise our villain shoves his entire 150bb into the pot.

Obviously we are never calling this raise - so I sheepishly fold - he either has an 8 or probably 8/9, and then instantly in the chat the opponent types 444.

I asked him if that was his hand - and he said yes.
I replied to him saying Good bluff - but you were beat.

He replied No bluff I had a set. You have straight?

And I just replied - nice bluff. Note added to that player.

Just goes to show you the types of players I'm up against. A player with a top 10 chip stack willing to put in 150bb with - what - the 7th nuts!?!
I would considered the call with a naked 8 - but not the bottom end.

 

[fundiver199]

I think chasing gutshots are mostly a losing endeavor.

Especially when you are drawing to the low end of a 1-liner. Your hand is almost worse than having second pair on a spread out board like KT63, because on such a board there are only 3 unseen kings, he can have, while on 7654 there are 4 unseen 8s, he can have.

Obviously we are never calling this raise - so I sheepishly fold - he either has an 8 or probably 8/9, and then instantly in the chat the opponent types 444.

That sounds like BS to me. He probably had the nuts with 98 and just wanted to confuse you

 

[theANMATOR]

That sounds like BS to me. He probably had the nuts with 98 and just wanted to confuse you

Possibly - I saw him call an early position open shove for 45bb with K/T o for roughly 40% of his stack - in the CO after my hand with him - so I wouldn't put it past him to have shoved that weak set vs me.

fundiver - - you should really see the completely terrible players in the micro limit player pool. OFTEN players shoving or calling large shoves with Q/J off, K/T off, 33, J/T suited and off. A/8 from MP into 2 EP opens with 3 players left to act behind.
It's surprising to ME I'm not up 20k in this field. But just as often as these terrible players get it in so bad they are drawing to runner runner or even to one out - the magical runouts happen.
A/T off just beat my JJs when I re-raised on the flop with top set. JT3 rainbow. Guy shoves his entire stack on the final 2 tables for 35bb - I have this fish covered and I happily call, and you know how this goes, turn Q, river K. Just - wow.

 

[eetenor]

Hey all. This was an interesting one.

This is a 2k GTD on ACR very deep structure.

25k starting stack which equates to 250bb.
10 minute blinds 30 levels.

We are somewhere into the 2nd hour of play - not exact on when. Nearing first break. I think blinds were 250/500 with 50 ante. For the purposes of this post - it isn't important, we will be using big blinds.

I have 158bb - good for a top 10 chip stack.

Villain has just moved to the table like 3 hands prior and s/he has 150bb. I had not seen how s/he had accumulated his/her chips.
For the purposes of this hand s/he will further on be called he.

Villain limps from CO and I'm holding Q/3 off suit in the bb. Everyone else folds - and I decide to just complete.

Pot is approx. 3bb total.

Flop comes 567 rainbow.

Villain bets just under half pot into this board 1.45bb, and I decide to make the call seeing if I can hit the ass end of the straight. I never even considered bluff raising here because I'm not looking to bluff off any chips at this current stage of the tourney especially since myself and the villain are both sitting with over 150bb.

So the turn brings in the straight - complete rainbow board 7654 and we are holding Q/3 off suit.


What action would you suggest here - leading, check calling, check raising?

Thank you for posting

The flop was a lead- why?
1 we win when they fold
2 we build pots if they call with overs and we can bluff turns.
3 we take control of the action
4 we need two streets of betting to define our V's range.
5 Ugly turn cards put us in tough spots with a deep stack effective when we check flop.

So a player limping CO is really passive weak standard type V-there is just no reason to limp that spot with that stack.

What range would you put a CO limper on?
What part of that range bets flop 45% pot when it is the big blinds board and a 3 straight board and they are weak passive standard V?
Remember the CO limped then sees 456r and then bets a value sizing versus the BB.

86 is not out of the question here neither is 98 or amazingly 87. Why 87?

A standard weak V's bet can be bluff or value including the nuts.
This is not a tricky board to read so even standard V know you hit it when you called.

If we lead all the overs fold and so do the Ax one pair hands some of the time. We get called by sets 2 pairs and draws and raised by all the bigger straights and the same straight A3 43 53 63s (Weak V)
.
So a passive weak player (who can read boards) has very few bluffs on flop or turn or few 3 barrel bluffs.

***********
Which means in this spot versus this weak player we should lead turn for value and call a raise (sizing) and fold to river bets -sizing dependent.

Hope this helps

 

[theANMATOR]

Thank you for posting

The flop was a lead- why?
1 we win when they fold
2 we build pots if they call with overs and we can bluff turns.
3 we take control of the action
4 we need two streets of betting to define our V's range.
5 Ugly turn cards put us in tough spots with a deep stack effective when we check flop.

So a player limping CO is really passive weak standard type V-there is just no reason to limp that spot with that stack.

What range would you put a CO limper on?
What part of that range bets flop 45% pot when it is the big blinds board and a 3 straight board and they are weak passive standard V?
Remember the CO limped then sees 456r and then bets a value sizing versus the BB.

86 is not out of the question here neither is 98 or amazingly 87. Why 87?

A standard weak V's bet can be bluff or value including the nuts.
This is not a tricky board to read so even standard V know you hit it when you called.

If we lead all the overs fold and so do the Ax one pair hands some of the time. We get called by sets 2 pairs and draws and raised by all the bigger straights and the same straight A3 43 53 63s (Weak V)
.
So a passive weak player (who can read boards) has very few bluffs on flop or turn or few 3 barrel bluffs.

***********
Which means in this spot versus this weak player we should lead turn for value and call a raise (sizing) and fold to river bets -sizing dependent.

Hope this helps

Thanks for the input E - as always very knowledgable and sound. I almost considered leading the flop - but thought about a big check raise - blowing me off the tiny equity I had - so I thought better against it.

I put no value on our opponents hand. As stated - im never limping any hand from that position. So unless the opponent is attempting to play tricky (unlikely) or just attempting to get into the pot (more likely) with any 2 cards maybe a weak suited ace or small pocket pair - I don't even attempt to range an opponent from a limp. They are just too passive and weak players to attempt to range preflop.

Certainly - those ranges are in a weak passive players limping range. Nice to point that out E.

I'm assuming he either had the nuts - or (more likely) based on later hands I saw the guy play - he actually jammed his set of 44s thinking he was good, a level one player only playing his hand - oblivious to the board and the potential of the board.

 

[eetenor]

Thanks for the input E - as always very knowledgable and sound. I almost considered leading the flop - but thought about a big check raise - blowing me off the tiny equity I had - so I thought better against it.

I put no value on our opponents hand. As stated - im never limping any hand from that position. So unless the opponent is attempting to play tricky (unlikely) or just attempting to get into the pot (more likely) with any 2 cards maybe a weak suited ace or small pocket pair - I don't even attempt to range an opponent from a limp. They are just too passive and weak players to attempt to range preflop.

Certainly - those ranges are in a weak passive players limping range. Nice to point that out E.

I'm assuming he either had the nuts - or (more likely) based on later hands I saw the guy play - he actually jammed his set of 44s thinking he was good, a level one player only playing his hand - oblivious to the board and the potential of the board.

Thank you for responding.

While leading flop is the better leading spot- leading turn is fine you should not be upset with yourself just because a maniac shoved. We lose more chips if we check and the V bets pot - pot river and shows us the straight or rivered full as we have to call because of our player pool tendencies- we are too far up in our range to fold to that action. As you saw later this V has no board interaction skills.

Don't stop lead betting in the correct places (this was correct) and bet larger for value when you are this deep stacked.

Why is it correct to lead here? The term donk lead refers to leading while not understanding ranges- board interaction and V actions based on tendencies.
If you understand those data points then vs standard villains they are checking back this turn. Our only data point on our V in this spot was they were weak passive because they limped the CO. So leading into a weak passive on a 4 straight board is the better action than checking. Checking is terrible for us as we miss value -we miss bluff opportunities- we allow the V to see a free card -not good when we have a strong but not nut hand.

Hope this helps

 

[theANMATOR]

Thank you for responding.

While leading flop is the better leading spot- leading turn is fine you should not be upset with yourself just because a maniac shoved. We lose more chips if we check and the V bets pot - pot river and shows us the straight or rivered full as we have to call because of our player pool tendencies- we are too far up in our range to fold to that action. As you saw later this V has no board interaction skills.

Don't stop lead betting in the correct places (this was correct) and bet larger for value when you are this deep stacked.

Why is it correct to lead here? The term donk lead refers to leading while not understanding ranges- board interaction and V actions based on tendencies.
If you understand those data points then vs standard villains they are checking back this turn. Our only data point on our V in this spot was they were weak passive because they limped the CO. So leading into a weak passive on a 4 straight board is the better action than checking. Checking is terrible for us as we miss value -we miss bluff opportunities- we allow the V to see a free card -not good when we have a strong but not nut hand.

Hope this helps

Heck yeah E - that does help a lot. Thank you.

 

[theANMATOR]

Pre flop is a no brainer to me and then on the flop I would fold here since I have no idea where I am in the hand and would need a 4 to even be somewhat comfortable. Even a Q could put me in big trouble if this player limped in with a small to medium pocket pair since they will have a lot of sets which could very easily be the case here.

As played on the turn I would not lead here since it will just make all of villains air fold and we specifically called on the flop I assume to get some implied odds if we hit the 4 so I like check calling the most but if you wanted to check raise I guess I am okay with it but I dont think its as good as check calling. My plan would be to check call the turn and depending on the river card and the opponents bet sizing they made on the turn, I would probably lead the river for what I would take as a value bet. I am not green lighting our spot by any means but we are only losing to 8x at the moment and villain could have 8x in their range but more likely than not they dont. In leading the river if we get raised it would depend on sizing. Obviously if they clicked it back or something like that I would call it to see it but if its any normal size raising I would just fold thinking they would not be raising sets with 4 to a straight on the board and our range as wide as it is.

WHAT SAY YOU BUDDY - ABOUT MY FOLD ON THE TURN ?

 

[fundiver199]

Why is it correct to lead here? The term donk lead refers to leading while not understanding ranges- board interaction and V actions based on tendencies.

According to Wikipedia a donk bet is a bet made into the previous street aggressor. If Hero had gone for a lead on the flop, it would not be a donk bet, because it was a limped pot. Heros lead on the turn was a donk bet though, because it was made into the player, who showed aggression on the flop.

As for the flop decision in this hand I think, the worst option is the one, Hero took, which was to check-call. Leading and check-folding are pretty close in my opinion. There are a ton of draws for us to semi-bluff with on this board, and 3X is the absolutely worst of them. If I was going to lead, I would pick a rather large sizing like 2/3 pot, since my goal is to end the hand right here and now. I dont want to see a turn with this hand, since no cards are really good for us.

 

[fundiver199]

fundiver - - you should really see the completely terrible players in the micro limit player pool. OFTEN players shoving or calling large shoves with Q/J off, K/T off, 33, J/T suited and off. A/8 from MP into 2 EP opens with 3 players left to act behind.

I have played a decent amount of micro stakes games myself, and even today I still occationally play a 2,2$ MTT. So I know, there are some very bad players at these limits. However my feeling is, that if he wanted you to know his hand, he would probably have showed it, which is possible on most poker sites. At least its possible on 888 Poker and pokerstars, where I play.

When he instead type his hand in the chat, I think, it tends to be more of a mind game, where he is just trying to mess with you. Even a terrible player should understand, that your donk lead is representing a straight on that turn, and that his set is most likely behind. So with a set he would just call and hope for the board to pair on the river. I still call BS on that chat comment, and for sure I think, you made the correct fold

 

[300HPGOD]

WHAT SAY YOU BUDDY - ABOUT MY FOLD ON THE TURN ?

As played I would do the same and fold. I would not be putting in an over 100 BB remaining stack with the wrong end of a straight (that would probably include if I had two cards making the butt end of a straight and not just one like in this case). However this is one of the specific reasons why I wouldnt lead here. I could be just calling on the flop with plenty of crap here or just a one pair hand (I agree with one pair hands I would lead the flop in a limped pot but against certain players I might check call) so I would not want tip my opponent off I really have something here and dont want them to fold out their garbage and dont want to deter them from continuing to bluff or bet thinking they are value betting.

If the villain really was telling the truth (fyi I lie quite a bit if someone asks me in chat what hand I had. Sometimes I tell the truth and sometimes I more than bend the truth) then they really arent a good player. If they were thinking at all they should be able to tell you never have 55-77 here since that flop is not going check call by you if you have a set on that board. When you call the flop, villain should know this is overcards speculating, some one pair hand or its some connection to a possible straight. If they had 44 they have all those crushed so they should be looking for value, not making a bet that all hands worse will fold. Did the villain count on 3x folding? I dont think so, they simply just didnt think, saw they had a set and clicked what probably is their favorite button... the all in button.

 

[AKQ]

the pot is like 7 bbs on the flop
turn makes it into a 10 bb
Your villian is the deciding factor here
If I think he has a overpair im betting HALF
if i wanted to bluff here I'd bet half
if i beleive he will bet the half himself then i will check
but if not im betting HALF

 

[AKQ]

why are people scared to play poker at 150bbs against eachother..
Guess they wanna wait 3 hours till it shrinks into 25 bbs... idk

 

[theANMATOR]

why are people scared to play poker at 150bbs against eachother..
Guess they wanna wait 3 hours till it shrinks into 25 bbs... idk

Only a dolt calls a 150bb shove with bottom end of a straight.
Not calling you names AKQ - just pointing out what a bad call that would be.

Likewise - only a mega fish shoves middle set on a 4 liner rainbow board.

A much better line from that players perspective - if he in fact had the nuts (which I highly doubt) would have been to check raise- a moderate amount - then value bet the river - to get max value from his hand.
Shoving on the turn seems like exactly what a fish would do because they are clueless to where they are at and think they should represent the straight - with their moderate set.
Oh well - I ended up in the top 20 and that guy was no where to be seen. He either min cashed - or busted out before making any return.

 

[eetenor]

According to Wikipedia a donk bet is a bet made into the previous street aggressor. If Hero had gone for a lead on the flop, it would not be a donk bet, because it was a limped pot. Heros lead on the turn was a donk bet though, because it was made into the player, who showed aggression on the flop.

As for the flop decision in this hand I think, the worst option is the one, Hero took, which was to check-call. Leading and check-folding are pretty close in my opinion. There are a ton of draws for us to semi-bluff with on this board, and 3X is the absolutely worst of them. If I was going to lead, I would pick a rather large sizing like 2/3 pot, since my goal is to end the hand right here and now. I dont want to see a turn with this hand, since no cards are really good for us.

Thank you for responding.

I am unsure of your intention here. I said "lead the flop" not donk lead it, so why did you feel you needed to define donk lead for me?

I then said "the lead on the turn was fine" again did not say donk lead and then explained why the term donk (a derogative) is used by sharing the underlying knowledge based understanding of the term "Donk Lead" not the when but the why. I then stated leading whether you call it a lead or donk lead is correct on the turn, which would be a donk lead by wiki def by the way, when it is an effective play based on conclusions arrived at by using the data available to us. Thus we never truly donk lead because we are skilled and know that leading is appropriate when the board texture and our hand and our V's range and V's possible turn actions warrants it.

As to no card is good for us if the V has limped Ax-2 Kx-2 Qx-9 Jx-9 T9 or AA-22 as some kind of weak trap then all the low cards are good for our range vs that range on the turn. That is a lot of cards that are good for our range on the turn. Even as played we cannot discount the V making a terrible half pot stab with A9 22 etc so we cannot narrow this V's range so much so that we think an open ended straight draw that turns into a straight is a hand we need to get away from.
As this V played KT poorly later and we are playing vs a field of several weak players we cannot exclude those hands from their limps and even their flop bets therefore leading flop with the intention of leading turn for value or as a bluff is a very viable strategy decision with the data we had preflop.

 

[Kev1004]

Good luck to you!

Good luck