$$2.00 NL HE STT: 2nd hand, facing a 4bet, opponents unknown

[LuisBoaC]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

STT

Buy-in

$2.00

Currency

$

Second hand of this 9-man SNG. I have never played against MP+1 or BB before so no reads or HUD stats there. UTG+1 has VPIP:25 PFR:18 from 853 hands but I don't think that's very relevant.
How would you play initially, after UTG+1's open?
What would you do in face of BB's 4-bet? Call? Raise (if so how much)? Surely no-one's folding here?!
Considering this is a $2 buy-in, would you choose a different line at higher stakes?

pokerstars, $1.72 + $0.28 - Hold'em No Limit - 10/20 (3 ante) - 9 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: 1,497 (75 bb)
UTG+1: 1,397 (70 bb)
MP (Hero): 1,497 (75 bb)
MP+1: 1,497 (75 bb)
LP: 1,497 (75 bb)
CO: 1,397 (70 bb)
BU: 1,397 (70 bb)
SB: 1,477 (74 bb)
BB: 1,844 (92 bb)

Pre-Flop: (57) Hero is MP with Q♣ Q♠
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to 60, Hero 3-bets to 180, MP+1 calls 180, 4 players fold, BB 4-bets to 425, 1 fold,
Hero ??

 

[eetenor]

Second hand of this 9-man SNG. I have never played against MP+1 or BB before so no reads or HUD stats there. UTG+1 has VPIP:25 PFR:18 from 853 hands but I don't think that's very relevant.
How would you play initially, after UTG+1's open?
What would you do in face of BB's 4-bet? Call? Raise (if so how much)? Surely no-one's folding here?!
Considering this is a $2 buy-in, would you choose a different line at higher stakes?

PokerStars, $1.72 + $0.28 - Hold'em No Limit - 10/20 (3 ante) - 9 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: 1,497 (75 bb)
UTG+1: 1,397 (70 bb)
MP (Hero): 1,497 (75 bb)
MP+1: 1,497 (75 bb)
LP: 1,497 (75 bb)
CO: 1,397 (70 bb)
BU: 1,397 (70 bb)
SB: 1,477 (74 bb)
BB: 1,844 (92 bb)

Pre-Flop: (57) Hero is MP with Q♣ Q♠
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to 60, Hero 3-bets to 180, MP+1 calls 180, 4 players fold, BB 4-bets to 425, 1 fold,
Hero ??

This is all about ranges here - what does a standard $2 Villain 4 bet from the BB vs UTG 1 open Mp 3 bet- take the time to create hand buckets-- EX estimate range we start with pairs what pairs 4 bet? Does 22- 99? so is it JJ TT only or is it even TT?
Then we look at AX hands what AX hands 4 bet? What 4 bet bluffs does the BB have? Then when we build this range we look at equity vs that range to decide how we proceed-
The HUD stats are relevant by the way that is a very good balance VPIP and PFR- so that suggests potential skill

 

[300HPGOD]

Eetenor is correct here that this is all about the range you assign villain. We know nothing about them so we have to assign them a range based on what we expect the average player to do in this spot which means we cant assume they are a maniac. From that range it will guide us as to what to do. I will say if you 3 bet to 4x here it might make a difference in this hand, no way to tell on that but it might deter 4 bets from certain players which we do not know if this player is one of them or not. Regardless, its better to 3 bet to 4x here at these blind levels early to not play the hand against several opponents. Their sizing is quite small here too which could be the nuts or it could be someone who raises to just raise. We dont know any of that again so I think its safer and smarter to err on the side of thinking this sizing is more nut looking then it is idiot looking

My personal thinking (right or wrong) would be that I cant expect villain to have some oddball J7 suited hand or K8 suited so this is high up in the range. I would think the only non pair hand that would do this is AK especially since we heavily block AQ. As far as pairs go, I dont think its any mid pairs as they would just set mine and to me that includes through 1010. So I am thinking this is JJ+, AK. Obviously could be too tight of a range but given we know nothing we have to range them as best we can. We are 47% against that range of AK+, JJ+. So I am not afraid to say that its not crazy to consider folding here as the least likely hand of my specific range of villain for them to have is the JJ which is the only one we crush. However, with that said I dont think I fold and I would call here since the only logical raise sizing is all in and that would potentially fold out JJ, make AK at least think about it and then of course the hands we are killed by snap call. So I would probably just call this pre flop, especially with the price, and see what happens post flop. Its going to be tough to fold against KK or AA if low flops come but flip side is it would be tough for JJ (should villain have it) to not lose their stack to us considering SPR is just over 1 if the low flops come. We are probably going broke in this hand once we call pre if we are up against it due to that low SPR but I dont like raising all in for what I mentioned before and if we call pre flop its because we think JJ or AK is there and we are ahead. Flops with no J, A, or K in them I think its definitely a call off given that low SPR should we call pre.

 

[fundiver199]

A cold 4-bet is a very strong action, unless it comes from a maniac, and BB is doing it against someone, who 3-bet an EP open being next to act, which is also a very strong action. Hands like JJ and TT are not supposed to 3-bet here, so QQ is actually the bottom of your value range, and AK is a 3-bet bluff (sort of). And not only does he cold 4-bet. He does it out of position, and he pick a really small sizing, which is like screaming from the mountain top "please give me action".

Unless he is a fish goofing around, which is of course possible given the stakes, I think, there is a very high chance, this is AA or KK. If you fold, MP+1 might stick in a call, and with a bit of luck they get to showdown, so you can take a note on, what BB is doing this with. And if its something silly, then of course you are not folding a big hand like QQ next time, he pull off this move. So my prefered option is actually to fold. My second preferred option is to jam, because I dont want to give MP+1 the odds to come along and possibly suck out on me.

 

[puzzlefish]

I'm in agreement this is most likely KK or AA that you are facing off against. Stats aren't very fishy or maniac-like. Villain isn't giving you a good price to set mine with QQ. I would tend to fold here over jamming, unless I really didn't care about this STT and want it over sooner than later.

 

[LuisBoaC]

Thank you all for your feedback.

We know nothing about them so we have to assign them a range based on what we expect the average player to do in this spot which means we cant assume they are a maniac.

I definitely played badly in regard to this point. I gave very little thought and time to my decision in-game (a problem I know I have). My thought process was essentially "At these stakes some players will 4bet then call off a raise with a wide range and this could be one of those spots." I totally see that's it's better to assume Villain isn't a maniac when I have no prior information.

So I am thinking this is JJ+, AK.

In reviewing the hand this is the range I estimated for BB (of course it's harder to objectively range Villain when one knows the results) but I still wasn't sure what the best play would have been if this was the case. The rest of your answer definitely gives me a clearer idea of what I could/should have done.

I think, there is a very high chance, this is AA or KK. If you fold, MP+1 might stick in a call, and with a bit of luck they get to showdown, so you can take a note on, what BB is doing this with. And if its something silly, then of course you are not folding a big hand like QQ next time,

In-game and while reviewing the hand I gave very little consideration to folding, I am definitely guilty of getting too attached to hands at times. I really like this idea, especially so early in the tourney. I did, in fact, get to see MP+1's hand so this certainly could have happened here and given me useful information for the rest of the game.

I 5-bet shoved (without enough thought), MP+1 called with A9s, BB called with KK and busted both MP+1 and myself.

 

[fundiver199]

I would think the only non pair hand that would do this is AK especially since we heavily block AQ.

If I was in BB and looked down on AK and this action in front of me, I would rather jam than go for a small 4-bet. The risk/reward for making that play was actually pretty reasonable with there already being almost 500 chips in the pot. By making this non all-in 4-bet, he committed almost 30% of the effective stack and still gave people great odds to call him in position. All this did, was to massage the pot larger or allow people to come over the top with a 5-bet, as in fact Hero did. I would not want either of that to happen with AK. So my other choise with AK, if I did not want to jam, would be to just call the 3-bet and then play pretty straight forward from there. On a A or K high board, easy stack off, otherwise check and fold to any significant action.

In-game and while reviewing the hand I gave very little consideration to folding, I am definitely guilty of getting too attached to hands at times.

To be fair its not easy to lay down QQ preflop for 75BB, and its not something, I do often either. Its just, that this particular action really scream, that BB has it, which in fact he did. Also in 4-bet+ pots in general QQ has bad removal, because it unblock AA and KK. So if we think, there is any chance, his range is wider than just KK+, AK is actually a better 5-bet jamming hand than QQ.

I really like this idea, especially so early in the tourney. I did, in fact, get to see MP+1's hand so this certainly could have happened here and given me useful information for the rest of the game.

It obviously sucks to give up 9BB out of your 75BB starting stack and then not even get to see a flop. But you would still be left with 66BB and plenty of time to make a comeback, especially since this was a regular speed SnG with 10 min blind intervals. The ICM value of your chips also goes up a little, if someone bust. So there is definitely something to be said for staying out of big pots in the early blind levels, unless you have basically the nuts, and let the other goofballs go to war

I 5-bet shoved (without enough thought), MP+1 called with A9s, BB called with KK and busted both MP+1 and myself.

Well in poker we either win or learn, and this time you learned