$160 NLHE MTT: Fold baby flush to pressure on river?

[Jacki Burkhart]

So, I am at the limpiest most passive calling station table in the world. to put in in perspective a few hands ago on a board of TT55K that got checked down to the river in a 5 way pot, a guy bet half the pot with Ace high and got called by 3 callers who all played the board and he scooped a pretty big pot with ace hi....you can't make this stuff up.

So, blinds are 100/200 and I'm in the BB with about 40k in chips. 4 people limp into my BB and I look down at and check my option. Pot contains 1000.

Flop comes

weeeeeee!

sb leads out for 700.

I decide not to mess around and raise it up to 2,100.

folds to the button who flat calls without much thought. he has about 18k sb folds.

I immediately put him on the This guy is the definition of loose passive. I also know that there is probably no bet size on the turn that will cause him to fold the nut flush draw....so I decide to check fold if the turn is a club and check call if the turn is not a club...

Turn is the putting a straight and straight draw out there. I check, he checks.

River is the

I decide to check and let him bluff at it if he missed his draw, and possibly think he is value betting if he made a straight...and just in case he flopped a bigger flush I'll save myself the agony of a check-raise.

well, he overbets the pot for 7,500 which is also about half his remaining stack. because he is generally so loose passive, it is hard for me to suspect a bluff here...but I suppose even passive players bluff sometimes when they miss their draw and their opponent is playing weak.

is this a snap call? tank-call? tank-fold?

 

[hffjd2000]

Whats the river card again?

 

[kanselau]

So, I am at the limpiest most passive calling station table in the world. to put in in perspective a few hands ago on a board of TT55K that got checked down to the river in a 5 way pot, a guy bet half the pot with Ace high and got called by 3 callers who all played the board and he scooped a pretty big pot with ace hi....you can't make this stuff up.

So, blinds are 100/200 and I'm in the BB with about 40k in chips. 4 people limp into my BB and I look down at and check my option. Pot contains 1000.

Flop comes

weeeeeee!

sb leads out for 700.

I decide not to mess around and raise it up to 2,100.

folds to the button who flat calls without much thought. he has about 18k sb folds.

I immediately put him on the This guy is the definition of loose passive. I also know that there is probably no bet size on the turn that will cause him to fold the nut flush draw....so I decide to check fold if the turn is a club and check call if the turn is not a club...

Turn is the putting a straight and straight draw out there. I check, he checks.

River is the

I decide to check and let him bluff at it if he missed his draw, and possibly think he is value betting if he made a straight...and just in case he flopped a bigger flush I'll save myself the agony of a check-raise.

well, he overbets the pot for 7,500 which is also about half his remaining stack. because he is generally so loose passive, it is hard for me to suspect a bluff here...but I suppose even passive players bluff sometimes when they miss their draw and their opponent is playing weak.

is this a snap call? tank-call? tank-fold?

You forgot crying call.
Is villain one of the players who called in the first hand, if so it signifies that he over values the strength of his hand (tank call), if he was the last one to call then hes just a spazz (snap call).

We tag villain as a loose passive so hes call on the flop makes perfect sense.
Just because villain is not folding turn bet , doesn't mean we should give him a free card , give him wrong odds to call.

By the river villain is thinking that you tried a semibluff on the flop and backed off on turn/river because you didn't hit. And decides to turn his Kx into a bluff.
Or isn't thinking at all and bets because hes overvaluing his KQ , but bets big because deep inside he doesn't want you to have the flush ( witch with the line you took doesn't seem likely anyway).

If villain has the nutz do you really think hes trying to blow you of the pot with a huge bet? And he is unlikely to slow play unless hes flopped nutz.

Considering that villain is loose passive your play suffered from fancy play syndrome.
I would only check the turn here if my opponent was a good thinking player purely for deceptive reasons, against a loose passive I play this ABC valuing every street , unless ofcorse I get check/razed on the turn.

Is this $160 rebuy - if so im getting it in on the river.

 

[Arjonius]

I immediately put him on the This guy is the definition of loose passive. I also know that there is probably no bet size on the turn that will cause him to fold the nut flush draw....so I decide to check fold if the turn is a club and check call if the turn is not a club...

If he's sure to call, then why not bet if the turn is a non-club? He's passive, so presumably not particularly likely to bet his draw.

 

[jaworek1405]

Hi, I prefer call the flop and to control the pot. I'm not sure if raise on the flop is right decision, what if club will come? hard fold? I probably call the river. Maybe he has a set and he thinks that he has the best hand or a straight? Our the flush is too strong to fold IMO

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

If he's sure to call, then why not bet if the turn is a non-club? He's passive, so presumably not particularly likely to bet his draw.

It's a good point you're making. I briefly considered it at the table and decided because I was OOP I wanted to pot control...probably too weak with a hand this strong...but at the time I just wasn't real confident...I'm also afraid he flopped a better flush...maybe that's an irrational fear but if I'm being honest, it's one of the things I was thinking.

I've thought about the turn a lot since this hand and can't decide which line is better. In a cash game you bet this turn every time. Even in a tourney I think it's ideal to bet if I have position, but OOP? Since he is a Caliling station I should probably value bet him to death...but because of tourney strategies and position, I don't think it was a sin to check with a well defined plan...sacrificing a little value to protect my stack.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

You forgot crying call.
Is villain one of the players who called in the first hand, if so it signifies that he over values the strength of his hand (tank call), if he was the last one to call then hes just a spazz (snap call).

no he was actually the 1 guy that folded that hand.

We tag villain as a loose passive so hes call on the flop makes perfect sense.
Just because villain is not folding turn bet , doesn't mean we should give him a free card , give him wrong odds to call.

in cash I agree with this 100%. In tourney there are more complex considerations besides just hand strength and pot odds, though.

If villain has the nutz do you really think hes trying to blow you of the pot with a huge bet? And he is unlikely to slow play unless hes flopped nutz.

excellent point!

Is this $160 rebuy - if so im getting it in on the river.

yes it's a rebuy. Probably shouldn't have been so scared.

I did find a call....took me a while. What was holding me up was how tiny my flush was. What got me to call, was finally I asked myself "Self, if you had the Jack hi flush could you fold it right here? because your situation is basically the same either way. Either he missed his draw and you're good, he has the nuts and you pay him off, or he is, in fact, nuts and you are good. So whether you have a Jack hi flush or a 4 hi flush it's the same decision."

I reluctantly called and he had missed his flush but made broadway....

the table couldn't believe that I took so long to call...I guess looking back it should be an easy call...

 

[Arjonius]

It's a good point you're making. I briefly considered it at the table and decided because I was OOP I wanted to pot control...probably too weak with a hand this strong...but at the time I just wasn't real confident...I'm also afraid he flopped a better flush...maybe that's an irrational fear but if I'm being honest, it's one of the things I was thinking.

I've thought about the turn a lot since this hand and can't decide which line is better. In a cash game you bet this turn every time. Even in a tourney I think it's ideal to bet if I have position, but OOP? Since he is a Caliling station I should probably value bet him to death...but because of tourney strategies and position, I don't think it was a sin to check with a well defined plan...sacrificing a little value to protect my stack.

The question is how much value you should be willing to sacrifice to protect how much of your stack. In this case, he can't cripple you, so the worst downside case isn't awful. Plus how likely are you to double him up anyway, or even to put much more in the pot and lose? Assuming you'll fold if the river is a club, not very.

Otoh, what's the upside? Depending how much of a calling station he is, you may be giving up two streets of value. So you may be passing up 3k or so if you're only going to get one street, but maybe around 3 times that or possibly his stack if you can get two streets.

On balance, I still prefer betting the turn because there seems to be more than enough likely upside to balance out the fairly limited downside risk.

 

[Scrover]

Crying call? I go for a call here. Bluffs are possible and two pair or a straight with the board is likely. I would want to give my opponent a free card for small ball strategy because your hand is vunerable and you are OOP so keeping the pot smaller is fine and betting on the river if the river is irrelevant. I can not see villain calling with worse for three streets that often with that turn card and so many bad river cards possible without a high club or a full house on the river so trying for two streets would be what I would do. I would also raise there myself to protect knowing that so often I will get called.