$160 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Rebuy: fold a monster draw vs. monster hand?

[Jacki Burkhart]

we are early in a deepstacked 1 rebuy tourney. All of the players involved in this hand have not used their rebuy yet.

Blinds are 200/400

Player A limps UTG...he open limps a wide range of hands (about 25-30% of pots) and never open raises. He seems generally loose passive and not very experienced. Plays fit or fold post flop. He has about 26k in chips

It folds to me in the cut-off I have I raise it up to 1250 I have about 47k in chips

Player B is the BB and he casually throws in the chips to call...he is a good player but very loose passive preflop and very aggressive post flop.

Action comes back to Player A and he takes a 5,000 chip and throws it in the pot and after the chip hits the middle he says "1 purple" which is the color of the 5,000 chip. The dealer is very good and immediately calls the floor without any of us having to ask...floor rules that 1 oversize chip is a call (which is probably the correct ruling, even though the player clearly meant to raise it up to 5,400 and we all knew it.) Player A was very upset with the ruling and argued his case...the way all the action went I was about 90% positive he had AA with KK and AK being also possible, but pretty much I knew he had exactly AA.

So...I get to see a "free" flop and hope to flop big or get the heck out.

Flop comes

YAY! I decide to pretty much call along and hope to hit my draw as I know exactly what he has, and I don't think he is capable of folding Aces, even on a scary board...so I don't think I have any bluff outs; but my implied odds are huge and I know I'll need to hit my hand to win- so at least I know where I'm at and won't lose extra chips by bluffing. I would really love to hit the K instead of the heart just to make sure I get paid off...but I'm pretty sure I'll get his whole stack either way if I hit.

Player B checks and Player A moves all in for about 25,000 into a pot of about 4,000. YIKES! Huge overbet...

so I tank...assuming he has Aces, I've got 11-12 outs depending where the is. If he has Kings I have closer to 14-15 outs...Player B looks really conflicted too...keeps checking and re-checking his cards, counting out his chips like he is considering calling. I'm now worried that he also has some of my outs...most likely hearts but possibly a broadway draw...

what to do? Seems like since I pretty much know his exact hand, I should use that information to make a really tight fold. If I was less positive of his cards, (like if I thought AK was a real possibility) I don't think I could fold here....

 

[kanselau]

we are early in a deepstacked 1 rebuy tourney. All of the players involved in this hand have not used their rebuy yet.

Blinds are 200/400

Player A limps UTG...he open limps a wide range of hands (about 25-30% of pots) and never open raises. He seems generally loose passive and not very experienced. Plays fit or fold post flop. He has about 26k in chips

It folds to me in the cut-off I have I raise it up to 1250 I have about 47k in chips

Player B is the BB and he casually throws in the chips to call...he is a good player but very loose passive preflop and very aggressive post flop.

Action comes back to Player A and he takes a 5,000 chip and throws it in the pot and after the chip hits the middle he says "1 purple" which is the color of the 5,000 chip. The dealer is very good and immediately calls the floor without any of us having to ask...floor rules that 1 oversize chip is a call (which is probably the correct ruling, even though the player clearly meant to raise it up to 5,400 and we all knew it.) Player A was very upset with the ruling and argued his case...the way all the action went I was about 90% positive he had AA with KK and AK being also possible, but pretty much I knew he had exactly AA.

So...I get to see a "free" flop and hope to flop big or get the heck out.

Flop comes

YAY! I decide to pretty much call along and hope to hit my draw as I know exactly what he has, and I don't think he is capable of folding Aces, even on a scary board...so I don't think I have any bluff outs; but my implied odds are huge and I know I'll need to hit my hand to win- so at least I know where I'm at and won't lose extra chips by bluffing. I would really love to hit the K instead of the heart just to make sure I get paid off...but I'm pretty sure I'll get his whole stack either way if I hit.

Player B checks and Player A moves all in for about 25,000 into a pot of about 4,000. YIKES! Huge overbet...

so I tank...assuming he has Aces, I've got 11-12 outs depending where the is. If he has Kings I have closer to 14-15 outs...Player B looks really conflicted too...keeps checking and re-checking his cards, counting out his chips like he is considering calling. I'm now worried that he also has some of my outs...most likely hearts but possibly a broadway draw...

what to do? Seems like since I pretty much know his exact hand, I should use that information to make a really tight fold. If I was less positive of his cards, (like if I thought AK was a real possibility) I don't think I could fold here....

If you are so convinced that he has QQ+ fold pre . Your a huge underdog.
If you call to flop big then go for it when you do? If villain has KK+ its a race.

 

[Arjonius]

If you are so convinced that he has QQ+ fold pre . Your a huge underdog.

No chance to fold pre- since the player who wanted to raise was forced to call instead.

If you call to flop big then go for it when you do? If villain has KK+ its a race.

There may be more to consider than just the hand odds. If you think you have a skill advantage over your table, you may want to be somewhat less inclined to gamble.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

There may be more to consider than just the hand odds. If you think you have a skill advantage over your table, you may want to be somewhat less inclined to gamble.

That was ultimately my deciding factor...I knew I had quite a big skill advantage over the table and elected to fold.

Player B folded face up after tanking.

Player A the limp-raise flop shipper guy didn't show his hand....but I don't think I needed to see it.

as the night wore on I sometimes regretted folding here because that player limp-raised about 4 more times....once with AK that I got to see....but at the time this decision took place; I didn't know that yet...

Plus, IMO the real allure of playing a monster draw like this is the ability to apply a lot of pressure and represent a big hand...you're happy if they fold, and you're OK if they call. But when THEY apply all the pressure, and you have zero fold equity it's just not so attractive to play anymore.

 

[General3Bet]

That was ultimately my deciding factor...I knew I had quite a big skill advantage over the table and elected to fold.

Player B folded face up after tanking.

He didn't show his hand....but I don't think I needed to see it.

as the night wore on I sometimes regretted folding here because that player limp-raised about 4 more times....once with AK that I got to see....but at the time this decision took place; I didn't know that yet...

Plus, IMO the real allure of playing a monster draw like this is the ability to apply a lot of pressure and represent a big hand...you're happy if they fold, and you're OK if they call. But when THEY apply all the pressure, and you have zero fold equity it's just not so attractive to play anymore.

I like your thinking in hands u seem like a very good player, live must be a lot different than online. That was a tight fold, I would have a tough time mucking that one. I would say it was a good fold and he had AA or KK but u never know maybe he had AK but I doubt it there, I would trust your read.

I've never played a live tourney before, I might head down and play the $3,300 canada tourney in Montreal next year though.

 

[Scrover]

I think you can gamble here. Or in some instances I would. But this does seem like a fish playing their first live tournament because the person has no idea of the 'one chip rule'. So, your fold I like because of the circumstances of the situation.

 

[kanselau]

No chance to fold pre- since the player who wanted to raise was forced to call instead.


There may be more to consider than just the hand odds. If you think you have a skill advantage over your table, you may want to be somewhat less inclined to gamble.

well actually the chips that you win here give you an even bigger edge than you realise , chips give us the power to unleash the power of our arsenal that we posses , without chips we are forced to play ABC poker.
When a good player has chips he is able to run over the table.

If it wasn't a rebuy then then gambling becomes much less attractive.

 

[Arjonius]

well actually the chips that you win here give you an even bigger edge than you realise , chips give us the power to unleash the power of our arsenal that we posses , without chips we are forced to play ABC poker.
When a good player has chips he is able to run over the table.

If it wasn't a rebuy then then gambling becomes much less attractive.

You'll have over 100 bb if you fold. If you feel you can only play ABC with such a stack, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[kanselau]

You'll have over 100 bb if you fold. If you feel you can only play ABC with such a stack, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I understand your argument and do agree with you that gambling is not a solid strategy when you have an edge over the table.

I will often pass on a small EV+ situation when my tornament life is at risk when deep also.

But this is a rebuy tornament and the chips we accumulate pushing small edges now can give us a big advantage later in the game when we get deeper, blinds get shallower and opponents get tougher.

Im guessing that blind levels are something like 20 min here and go from 200/400 to 300/600 so very soon we will have 80bb and 50bb when they go up again shortly.

If this was a freeze out I am a lot more cautious , but my first rebuy im pushing small edges to build a monster stack.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I guess it's worth mentioning I had already chipped up to 47k from a starting stack of 15k by outplaying this table. (And getting really lucky to have a straight flush when other dude had Ace hi flush)

One logic folly that I notice in some rebuy players is that they take a gamble to build a big stack... But then once they HAVE it they don't stop gambling and are very likely to lose it (often to a player like me)

No reason to think that I can't continue to pick up medium and big pots when I'm ahead.

 

[kanselau]

I guess it's worth mentioning I had already chipped up to 47k from a starting stack of 15k by outplaying this table. (And getting really lucky to have a straight flush when other dude had Ace hi flush)

One logic folly that I notice in some rebuy players is that they take a gamble to build a big stack... But then once they HAVE it they don't stop gambling and are very likely to lose it (often to a player like me)

No reason to think that I can't continue to pick up medium and big pots when I'm ahead.

how often do blind levels go up ?
yes I see what you are saying now
1 u have a decent edge over the field
2 average stack on the table is prob well below your stack size
no need to gamble true.

building a stack then splashing around stupidly is a different topic , about changing gears I guess .
Im the kind of player that likes to play with a stack and always has a rebuy if things don't go to plan A.

 

[Arjonius]

Im guessing that blind levels are something like 20 min here and go from 200/400 to 300/600 so very soon we will have 80bb and 50bb when they go up again shortly.

If this was a freeze out I am a lot more cautious , but my first rebuy im pushing small edges to build a monster stack.

50bb is still a fully playable stack. Having 75 at that same point in time would give you little if any more playability.

And it's a 1 rebuy, not unlimited or multi-rebuys.