$16.5 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Sometimes a bad card is good

3

300HPGOD

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Villain would have got me for sure since even though they can and are wide here I would still think there are limited 3x in their holding and therefore I would have value bet on the river small. I assume then I would have got raised which would put me in a tough spot but I would not be folding 2 pair easily there.

I do think a lot of the times you are forgoing value on that river by checking. Even if villain will have nothing a lot and just fold to your bet you still could get crying calls from hands that think you might be bluffing that have showdown value (even ace high). Im not a huge fan of checking the turn there if I am villain since there are plenty of river cards I would hate to see come out and if they did then I (the villain) would be in a tough spot if I bet and get raised or if I checked and faced a large bet. Of course no way villain could know you had a strong hand there but I think if I were them I would bet the turn. Players will be stickier 3 handed so villain can expect to get called wider when they bet the turn.

Its an interesting hand for sure with options for both of you on the turn and river that could be debated with good answers and arguments on both sides of the decisions.
 
F

fundiver199

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Villain would have got me for sure since even though they can and are wide here I would still think there are limited 3x in their holding and therefore I would have value bet on the river small.

I was not to worried about 3X either, but I definitely think, he can have some QX especially with weak kicker, and this is the main reason, I checked back. I guess, I could have gone for a thin value bet against JX or whatever, he might get sticky with, but it would definitely have been a bet-fold.
 
dallam

dallam

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Really interesting hand, and a nice runaway.

He could hit better river too, however as he blocked two more Queens you just could have weaker combinations on river. Which open the question, how many times are you able to make a bluff here? I don't think so many.

When you show big power on turn, I think that was the point when he could grab you with a re-raise without any risk.
That 3 was such a cool helping hand, but that party was crazy too by hitting the outs both, so deserved runaway. :)
 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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Villain would have got me for sure since even though they can and are wide here I would still think there are limited 3x in their holding and therefore I would have value bet on the river small. I assume then I would have got raised which would put me in a tough spot but I would not be folding 2 pair easily there.

I do think a lot of the times you are forgoing value on that river by checking. Even if villain will have nothing a lot and just fold to your bet you still could get crying calls from hands that think you might be bluffing that have showdown value (even ace high). Im not a huge fan of checking the turn there if I am villain since there are plenty of river cards I would hate to see come out and if they did then I (the villain) would be in a tough spot if I bet and get raised or if I checked and faced a large bet. Of course no way villain could know you had a strong hand there but I think if I were them I would bet the turn. Players will be stickier 3 handed so villain can expect to get called wider when they bet the turn.

Its an interesting hand for sure with options for both of you on the turn and river that could be debated with good answers and arguments on both sides of the decisions.

Just wondering HP why you think the two pair would be good on the river, if the villain was a solid player repping the Queen, the paired 3 counter-fitted us. I would definitely check back as FD did - expecting the villain to win with any Queen.

I'm normally not the monsters in the closet type but as played he was repping the Queen and with the 33s I would nearly always just check back the river. :icon_thum
 
B

Badday94

Rock Star
That guy played it perfectly until the river, where he should have given you a hard time betting something like 100k because that's what you sometimes do with a missed flush or straight. It's hard to not call that with 2 pair so he missed on some value here.
 
F

fundiver199

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That guy played it perfectly until the river, where he should have given you a hard time betting something like 100k because that's what you sometimes do with a missed flush or straight. It's hard to not call that with 2 pair so he missed on some value here.

Personally I dont like to give up initiative, when I am out of position with a very strong hand. So I think, he should either have bet the turn, or if he wanted to get tricky, go for a check-raise. I might actually have raised a turn bet after improving to two pair, so with both lines he would likely have stacked me.

Check-calling turn and then leading river would not be a good line in my opinion. When I bet the turn, I will have a mixture of strong made hands and draws, and when all the draws missed, his best chance of getting paid on the river was to check and allow me a chance to bluff or value own myself with my strong made hands.
 
3

300HPGOD

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Just wondering HP why you think the two pair would be good on the river, if the villain was a solid player repping the Queen, the paired 3 counter-fitted us. I would definitely check back as FD did - expecting the villain to win with any Queen.

I'm normally not the monsters in the closet type but as played he was repping the Queen and with the 33s I would nearly always just check back the river. :icon_thum


Are we only betting there when we have it or are we ever bluffing and what does villain think about our bluffing range? My small sizing might give away that its not a bluff but I personally think villain is calling a bet with a lot more than just 3x or Qx. This is 3 handed where Ace high hands have to be valued more and maybe they look us up time to time. If they think we are bluffing they do not raise our bet knowing we would not call their raise if we had biscuits. I just think its too simplistic to think villain will never call here 3 handed in this big of a pot with something other than Qx or 3x. If they are folding everything else every time then they are probably over folding. I could be wrong of course but thats how I saw this hand the first time I went through it. I dont hate checking back river at all.

I will also note that fundiver and villain are better players than I am but in this spot I am not checking the turn there when I have Qx on that board and where we are in the tournament. Therefore I do not think they are repping Qx as often as you might believe they are. Maybe I suck and that is how good players play Qx there but I wouldnt play it that way. I dont allow a check behind there on the turn with Qx and a free card of any K, 10, heart, or board pairing would make me at least a little nervous.
 
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fundiver199

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Are we only betting there when we have it or are we ever bluffing and what does villain think about our bluffing range? My small sizing might give away that its not a bluff but I personally think villain is calling a bet with a lot more than just 3x or Qx. This is 3 handed where Ace high hands have to be valued more and maybe they look us up time to time. If they think we are bluffing they do not raise our bet knowing we would not call their raise if we had biscuits. I just think its too simplistic to think villain will never call here 3 handed in this big of a pot with something other than Qx or 3x. If they are folding everything else every time then they are probably over folding. I could be wrong of course but thats how I saw this hand the first time I went through it. I dont hate checking back river at all.

I will also note that fundiver and villain are better players than I am but in this spot I am not checking the turn there when I have Qx on that board and where we are in the tournament. Therefore I do not think they are repping Qx as often as you might believe they are. Maybe I suck and that is how good players play Qx there but I wouldnt play it that way. I dont allow a check behind there on the turn with Qx and a free card of any K, 10, heart, or board pairing would make me at least a little nervous.

I dont think, it would be totally crazy to bet the river for value. Its certainly true, that the turn check-call does cap their range, except for the rare slowplay, which I ran into here. But hands like AQ, KQ, QJ are kind of unlikely, because they probably bet the turn themselfes. I did bet fairly large on the turn though, so I do think, they have something reasonable, when they continue, and in real time I felt, a river bet would be to thin. It would need to be on the small side, and betting very big on the turn and then small on the river can look weird, and it might even induce a check-raise, which I did not want to face.

This was also an high ICM spot, where losing the rest of my chips is way more bad than winning a bit extra is good. So right or wrong I took the safe and easy option and checked back for a cheap showdown. Which in this case obviously saved me some chips. But of course we should not be results oriented, and I was certainly not expecting him to turn over top boat :)
 
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