$12 NLHE STT Turbo: TT preflop vs reg

[OzExorcist]

$12 NL HE STT Turbo: TT preflop vs reg

Villain is a winning, multitabling reg at these stakes. I think I've got a bit of a mental block in spots like this, what action are people taking? I figure we're not really getting the odds to set mine but raising makes things messy so is folding really the best action here?

full tilt poker $11 + $1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 8 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: t1590
UTG: t1590
UTG+1: t3030
MP1: t1495
MP2: t1450
CO: t1645
BTN: t1240
Hero (SB): t1460

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is SB with T

T

UTG raises to t150, 5 folds, Hero wonders WWKLD?

 

[WiZZiM]

Do you expect any decent reg to be opening wider than 10's in this spot? even if he's opening stuff like 88, calling or 3betting are never going to be great options. We don't have odds to setmine, we're OOP postflop we're usually going to face overs, and almost always going to be facing a c-bet, against a strong range.

Add to that we're really not gettting very much if we do decide to 3bet on him. With a raise to 150 plus blinds, thats around 225. we want at least 20% of our stack for it to be even worth while. which is ~ 300.

 

[Rldetheflop]

are we sure we dont have odds to set-mine here? I know we prefer to have some callers in front but Implied odds state we have to call 125 to win 1510 (more if we can get a call from the BB also).

1510/125=12.08

I think anything over 12 we have odds.


If I am mistaken with any these numbers please someone correct me.

 

[cjatud2012]

well I think we would probably need better odds than that, since we're out of position and villain may not always stack off with overpairs, since he's a decent reg.

 

[Rldetheflop]

well I think we would probably need better odds than that, since we're out of position and villain may not always stack off with overpairs, since he's a decent reg.

well I definitely agree that its close so folding isnt bad but I dont think calling is horrible either. The 12-1 rule factors in the times when they dont stack off and the times they hit their set also.

 

[Rldetheflop]

what odds are you guys looking for to set-mine? Maybe I am being a little too loose with set-mining.

 

[WiZZiM]

no way we can think of setmining here, we arn't getting the implied odds, we want at least 15 to 1 if not more, plus were up against a REg whos less liekly to pay us off without a mosnter himself. Adding to that it's harder to get paid off being OOP, it's a 3bet or fold spot, and since we're behind the range (most likely) the only sane play is to fold.

 

[Rldetheflop]

3 betting would be awful

I may be able to give you 15-1 on this reg since as you say he will be less likey to stack off however If 15-1 is your general rule for set-mining I think you are missing out on too many opportunities.

also many winning regs will still stack off with AA on a flop of 10 5 2 rainbow.

 

[WiZZiM]

3 betting would be awful

I may be able to give you 15-1 on this reg since as you say he will be less likey to stack off however If 15-1 is your general rule for set-mining I think you are missing out on too many opportunities.

it's my general rule for SNG's, i want slightly better implied odds as we have to factor in stuff like ICM tax. Basically implied odds type hands are only of value in the really small blind levels, for stars it's usually 10/20 and 15/30. anything past that is usually going to be spewy. And once we get into the mid game, our most profitable moves will be shoving, calling shoves and re-stealing.

Plus being OOP id want better odds again, against one opponant i want insanely good odds. But we're not talking about general situations, were talking about this situation.

I might lower it if there are loads of bad players in the hand, if im in position, if the blinds are smaller compared to stack sizes and whatever.

 

[Rldetheflop]

it's my general rule for SNG's, i want slightly better implied odds as we have to factor in stuff like ICM tax. Basically implied odds type hands are only of value in the really small blind levels, for stars it's usually 10/20 and 15/30. anything past that is usually going to be spewy. And once we get into the mid game, our most profitable moves will be shoving, calling shoves and re-stealing.

Plus being OOP id want better odds again, against one opponant i want insanely good odds. But we're not talking about general situations, were talking about this situation.

I might lower it if there are loads of bad players in the hand, if im in position, if the blinds are smaller compared to stack sizes and whatever.

I absolutely agree with you on the bolded text although I would include 25/50 as small blind play.

Position is less important when talking about set-mining as being oop with a set is not terrible since we almost always have the best hand and can check raise and at least gain some chips from the villain if not the entire stack.

 

[WiZZiM]

25/50 is a weird level, but it defiantely falls into mid blind play, usually stack sizes are around 30 BB's which is too small for setmining, but it's good for re-stealing and stealing.

You may be right, it may be less important, but it's still something to think about, when we have position on an opponant, there is a chance we can take the pot away from the postflop, but that chacne is pretty limited being OOP, so were solely relying on flopping our set.

 

[Rldetheflop]

yea 25/50 is a weird level for sure.


I am not sure which book i read the 12-1 rule but it explained it pretty thoroughly and it seemed logical you are roughly 8-1 to hit your set. the rest of the odds are to cover the times you dont get villains stack and you lose your stack set over set.


I will do some more research. Perhaps I do need to bump it up some but I still think 15-1 is a little high generally speaking.

 

[WiZZiM]

It was most likely a cash or MTT book. It doesnt really apply in SNG's we need much better odds for all the reasons stated above. Plus spewing chips early can have a detrimental effect later on in the game. It can affect a lot of things that you may not even realise. But yeah, let us know what your findings were, i dont really have much in the way of math to back my opinion up, but i know we deffo want more implied odds in SNG's as opposed to MTT or cash. Plus we only start with 75 BB's as opposed to 100BB+ in cash and MTT, the bigger the stacks are, the better it will be to play implied odds hands.

 

[Rldetheflop]

well after quickly skimming through the dozen or so books I own I couldnt find the rule of 12-1 anywhere. I dont think I just made the number up so I must have read it somewhere. None of the books gave an hard rule to follow but it does appear through looking at several hand examples that 15-1 is a good range.


I am glad this thread was started as clearly I have been far too loose when it comes to set-mining.

always nice to spot a leak.

 

[OzExorcist]

Plus we only start with 75 BB's as opposed to 100BB+ in cash and MTT, the bigger the stacks are, the better it will be to play implied odds hands.

It's actually 50BB starting stacks in this case. Full Tilt don't have the 10-20 level like Stars do in STTs.

Only goes to reinforce your point though

 

[NineLions]

One of the difficulties of tournies vrs cash because of the stack sizes, as already mentioned.

But, I've always believed that with hands like TT we have to be able to win sometimes just calling, especially in position. Flop comes with one overcard, he bets or doesn't bet, do we call or check or fold or raise? It's where the real challenge in hand and opponent reading comes in, though it's tougher in a tournament setting with the shorter stacks, and likely less stats and info.