$11 NLHE MTT Turbo: Too deep to shove pre?

[Ianmacca99]

$11 turbo 20 remaining

Blinds 17.5k/35k 2k ante

UTG 1.2m bets 100k
Fold to hero 1.1m in bb with AKo

Villan had been playing aggressive but not wild

I felt as though I was a little too deep to shove and elected to 3 bet to 320k do we feel this is a mistake out of position?

I will reveal what went down after some feedback

 

[deyvsonflp]

I would 3bet / call in this situation to play in position. But I would not give up.

 

[fundiver199]

I dont think, the small 3-bet is bad, but you need to be prepared to jam most flops, even when you miss. I also dont mind simply shipping it preflop. It might not be a particularly balanced play, but even if you show him, you have AK, what exactly can he do about it? He cant profitably call you, unless he have exactly AA or KK, and those hands are obviously also not folding to a small 3-bet. So you are going to get a lot of folds, and occationally you will get called by a pocket pair or sometimes AQ, both of which are completely acceptable outcomes.

 

[Ianmacca99]

I dont think, the small 3-bet is bad, but you need to be prepared to jam most flops, even when you miss. I also dont mind simply shipping it preflop. It might not be a particularly balanced play, but even if you show him, you have AK, what exactly can he do about it? He cant profitably call you, unless he have exactly AA or KK, and those hands are obviously also not folding to a small 3-bet. So you are going to get a lot of folds, and occationally you will get called by a pocket pair or sometimes AQ, both of which are completely acceptable outcomes.

Thanks I was close to shipping it pre and ended up 3 betting. Flop came ace high and I bet 200k and got jammed on an 3s 8h As flop and I called villan holds A8o and I couldn't improve. Am I being results orientated in thinking I made mistakes in the hand not shipping pre. Are you a fan of shoving the flop or betting smaller as I chose ? I get why we would shove the flop to balance the times we miss with when we hit

 

[fundiver199]

Once you flop top pair, I dont mind the small bet, since you want him to continue with worse. It was just a really good flop for him, and if he had A9 or AT, you would most likely have stacked him. I mean: Is he calling the 3-bet and then folding top pair, when the SPR is just a little more than 1? I dont think so.

 

[FernA9ndo]

You had a good hand to 3-bet pre, villain playing aggressive, you have a hand to play aggressive against him. Just a really good flop for him.

 

[kkonicke]

That's just a cooler. I think a 3brt is the play. If you had 25 bb I think I shove, but I think you're a hair over 30 if my math is any good so you aren't you the shove point yet. You can't really fold after that flop. Plenty of other Ax that you stack here.

 

[300HPGOD]

I agree with fundiver that if we 3 bet here to a size close that you wind up making it that you will have to go with some flops that you wind up missing. With that in mind I like jamming here (even though we deep for jamming) rather than small 3 betting. The problem I have with small 3 betting is that the raiser is UTG and we have a A and K so I believe their range is much more likely to be pocket pair heavy. In thinking that they have a pocket pair, they are not going to fold if we 3x or so 3 bet and they will position on us. I think they will call that a lot and now we are playing in this low SPR scenario without a made hand going up against a pair most likely.

I will say something here that is probably frowned upon but I do it at times with big Ax hands and these specific stack depths while in the blinds and that is I just call here. I will note that I 3 bet here from other positions that open but I will respect the UTG raise as it is something stronger than normal and probably pocket pairs that arent folding to a small raise. With just calling here we can rep a J10 suited type hand and we can play more perfectly against pocket pair hands. We wont get max value doing this as we are probably only getting one street if we flop a A or K but we can fold out of the hand easily when the flop isnt in our favor and we can even throw in some check raises (depending on how small villain bets the flop) depending if we want to bluff or not as 456 and 789 type boards we can rep a little more. If I played this hand I would have either jammed or just called. If I wound up just calling I would have check raised which we would have lost but this is a hand that you will lose it all if goes to a flop with that runout. I didnt put villain on A8 and my just calling looks bad then as we will get bluffed out of some pots playing it my way but I think it is at least a play to keep in mind.

 

[Collin Moshman]

I like the small 3-bet pre-flop, although jamming would certainly be fine too.

The benefit to a 3-bet to 300k or so is that you give your opponent ability to make a big mistake by continuing with dominated hands like the one he mistakenly calls your reraise with. Even though he hit a lucky flop, you did well to get your opponent committed to a big pot pre-flop with a marginal hand.

 

[fundiver199]

I will say something here that is probably frowned upon but I do it at times with big Ax hands and these specific stack depths while in the blinds and that is I just call here.

I actually do that as well, and especially if its two larger than average stacks clashing against each other with ICM implications like near the bubble or on the final table. In that situation there is a lot of incentive to keep the pot small and avoid these huge flips with two overcards against a pocket pair. It also keep dominated hands in their range, so that if we do flop top pair, we often have pretty good implied odds. Flatting with AK is certainly not the standard play, but there are situations, which warrent it.

 

[Vallet]

There is one subtle point why I would prefer to just call on the preflop in such a situation. The pot becomes very large after 3 bets, and the probability of all in is very high on one of the streets. UTG can have a pocket pair, hit the flop, or start bluffing aggressively. Then we'll just have to fold on the flop or turn, losing most of the stack with a missed AK. When the pot is not so big, it is easier for us to place our bets first. You bet even if the flop failed. And when you get a big re-raise or all-in, it can lead to the idea that the opponent has two pairs or a set.

 

[Poker Orifice]

There is one subtle point why I would prefer to just call on the preflop in such a situation. The pot becomes very large after 3 bets, and the probability of all in is very high on one of the streets. UTG can have a pocket pair, hit the flop, or start bluffing aggressively. Then we'll just have to fold on the flop or turn, losing most of the stack with a missed AK. When the pot is not so big, it is easier for us to place our bets first. You bet even if the flop failed. And when you get a big re-raise or all-in, it can lead to the idea that the opponent has two pairs or a set.

I don't think a 'donk bet' looks particularly strong after flatting pre OOP Villain is going to be able to blow us off the best hand here more often than not.

I don't mind flatting pre for reasons mentioned above by Fundriver.

 

[Vallet]

I don't think a 'donk bet' looks particularly strong after flatting pre OOP Villain is going to be able to blow us off the best hand here more often than not.

I don't mind flatting pre for reasons mentioned above by Fundriver.

The player is definitely not in the best position on the flop. But he chose the role of the aggressor on the preflop and made a re-raise. And therefore, he is forced to place a continuation bet or choose a check-call line losing the initiative. I think the main question here is something else. Will you push 30-31bb with the AK hand against UTG on the preflop or not ? Because bumping into a pocket pair is not very pleasant.

 

[theANMATOR]

I like the small 3-bet pre-flop, although jamming would certainly be fine too.

The benefit to a 3-bet to 300k or so is that you give your opponent ability to make a big mistake by continuing with dominated hands like the one he mistakenly calls your reraise with. Even though he hit a lucky flop, you did well to get your opponent committed to a big pot pre-flop with a marginal hand.

I vary my A/K o preflop play quite a bit. Some times I will jam, dependent on position, stack sizes, structure of the event, and time of the event, Sometimes I will just call, dependent on my mood and types of players I have around me, and other times I will 3bet, but I do this less often recently. I 3bet A/K suited more often than not.

As played this hand - I think I would jam pre, I don't think you are too deep for that play. But this move would be based on how the villain has played previous hands. Has he sown down with rag Ace hands in previous hands, Has he slow played big pocket pair in late position? I think jamming is the most profitable, and would have resulted in a preflop fold from the villain.