$11 NLHE MTT Turbo: set vs flush draw and the shove from the next world champion

teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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I'm under the impression that a made set on the flop has strong equity and a shove should be called with high frequency (always?).
This situations happen so often that I'm 110% sure it's a flush draw and because the villain is the next world champion, I lose with my stupid equity and my stupid range advantage and my stupid self.

What the hell should I do differently here?

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T1,500/T3,000
Buy-in: $9.80+$1.20 USD Hold'em No Limit
PokerStars
9 players
Formatted by SharkScope.com - Track your poker statistics and avoid the sharks

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (
T101,541)
UTG+1 - Hero (
T72,159)
UTG+2 - UTG+2 (
T46,292)
MP - MP (
T108,768)
MP2 - MP2 (
T28,231)
CO - CO (
T19,175)
BTN - BTN (
T65,791)
SB - SB (
T64,604)
BB - BB (
T27,215)

Preflop: (
T7,875, 9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 8♣ 8♦1 fold, Hero raises to T6,000, 5 folds, SB calls T4,500, BB calls T3,000

Flop:
8♠ T♣ A♠ (T21,375, 3 players - Hero: T65,784, SB: T58,229, BB: T20,840)SB bets T10,688, 1 fold, Hero raises to T21,376, SB raises to T58,229 (all-in), Hero calls T36,853

Turn:
7♠ (T137,833, 2 players, 1 all-in - Hero: T7,555, SB: T0)

River:
4♥ (T137,833, 2 players, 1 all-in - Hero: T7,555, SB: T0)

Total Pot:
T137,833
SB shows
4♠ 3♠ (a flush, Ace high)
Hero shows
8♣ 8♦ (three of a kind, Eights)

SB wins T137,833
 
eetenor

eetenor

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I'm under the impression that a made set on the flop has strong equity and a shove should be called with high frequency (always?).
This situations happen so often that I'm 110% sure it's a flush draw and because the villain is the next world champion, I lose with my stupid equity and my stupid range advantage and my stupid self.

What the hell should I do differently here?

No Limit Hold'em Tournament T1,500/T3,000
Buy-in: $9.80+$1.20 USD Hold'em No Limit
PokerStars
9 players
Formatted by SharkScope.com - Track your poker statistics and avoid the sharks

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (
T101,541)
UTG+1 - Hero (
T72,159)
UTG+2 - UTG+2 (
T46,292)
MP - MP (
T108,768)
MP2 - MP2 (
T28,231)
CO - CO (
T19,175)
BTN - BTN (
T65,791)
SB - SB (
T64,604)
BB - BB (
T27,215)

Preflop: (
T7,875, 9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 8♣8♦1 fold, Hero raises to T6,000, 5 folds, SB calls T4,500, BB calls T3,000

Flop:
8♠T♣A♠ (T21,375, 3 players - Hero: T65,784, SB: T58,229, BB: T20,840)SB bets T10,688, 1 fold, Hero raises to T21,376, SB raises to T58,229 (all-in), Hero calls T36,853

Turn:
7♠ (T137,833, 2 players, 1 all-in - Hero: T7,555, SB: T0)

River:
4♥ (T137,833, 2 players, 1 all-in - Hero: T7,555, SB: T0)

Total Pot:
T137,833
SB shows
4♠3♠ (a flush, Ace high)
Hero shows
8♣8♦ (three of a kind, Eights)

SB wins T137,833

Thank U 4 Posting.

Firstly you did everything correctly in the hand. No matter what we do sometimes we lose.

So what can you do about how you feel right now? Which seems to be frustrated.

To be great at poker we need to be rational not emotional.

How can we move our minds from emotional to rational in regards to how we view the outcome of this hand?

Step 1

We analyze our decisions. Were they good decisions?

We use cardschat poker odds calculator to see what the odds were on these hands and possible other holdings villain might play similarly.

We look at stack sizes and try to determine if stack sizes could have influenced us to play differently.

We analyze villain's play and see if we miss read the situation.

We think more deeply about villain's play and see if we ranged villain to narrowly.

The more data we analyze, the more strategies we consider, the more rational our mind has to be. Thus we eliminate the emotional hurt this hand caused, so that it does not effect us in future hands.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
puzzlefish

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You did nothing wrong here. However, if you're seeing this situation repeating over and over, ask yourself if there's something wrong with that picture.
 
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fundiver199

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Given stack sizes I see no point in mini-raising on the flop. Just put him all in and be done. He would probably have called anyway, but when you go so small, you are literally begging him to stick around and try to draw out of you. And then you complain, when it happens. The same can be said for your mini-raise preflop. You are literally begging for people to get involved with speculative hands like 43s, when you make it so cheap. And of course when people get involved, they will sometimes win.
 
teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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Given stack sizes I see no point in mini-raising on the flop. Just put him all in and be done. He would probably have called anyway, but when you go so small, you are literally begging him to stick around and try to draw out of you. And then you complain, when it happens. The same can be said for your mini-raise preflop. You are literally begging for people to get involved with speculative hands like 43s, when you make it so cheap. And of course when people get involved, they will sometimes win.


The 2bb open is the “standard” at the table and is usual when the avg stack gets around 20 in my tourneys. In this hand I was set mining ready to check- fold the flop when I miss. A larger open just doesn’t have the implied odds.

The fact that is one speculative hand vs another is part of the situation and not something I necessarily want to avoid.

Looking at the spot, with one Ace there and a donk bet from SB wouldn’t you say the villain range is linear full with aces and two pairs?

And instead I repeatedly find myself against a flush draw. Maybe the books I read and all the theory is wrongly based on what villain is supposed to have and do instead of what they usually have and do.
 
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fundiver199

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The 2bb open is the “standard” at the table and is usual when the avg stack gets around 20 in my tourneys.


That might be the case, but just because something is "standard", does not mean, its optimal, and you still need to understand, what different sizings do.

In this hand I was set mining ready to check- fold the flop when I miss. A larger open just doesn’t have the implied odds.

I dont think, 88 is purely a setmine. The hand has some showdown value in itself, and it also has value to pick up the blinds and antes uncontested. Which boil back to the open sizing, since a min-raise should almost never get through, if BB defend correctly.

Looking at the spot, with one Ace there and a donk bet from SB wouldn’t you say the villain range is linear full with aces and two pairs?

He should not be donking on an A high flop, since it strongly favour you. This mean, he is bad, and I dont know, how this particular bad player construct his range. He could for sure have top pair, but its not exactly shocking to see a draw either. Moreover do you think, he would donk top pair and then fold to a jam? I think, its going in.
 
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fundiver199

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Maybe the books I read and all the theory is wrongly based on what villain is supposed to have and do instead of what they usually have and do.

You can certainly not assume, that everybody in micro or low stakes tournaments play "correct" poker. For this reason to much study and especially focus on GTO can actually hurt your winrate. Instead you need to simply get in there, play, and figure out what mistakes people typically make. Of course bad beats and coolers will still happen. A flopped set lose to a flushdraw 1 out of 4 times, and it just is, what it is.
 
SuzdalDEcor

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I think its ok, if we want to bluffs with our draws in here. But if you always call flop with your draws, his push will be ok too.
 
teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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That might be the case, but just because something is "standard", does not mean, its optimal, and you still need to understand, what different sizings do.



I dont think, 88 is purely a setmine. The hand has some showdown value in itself, and it also has value to pick up the blinds and antes uncontested. Which boil back to the open sizing, since a min-raise should almost never get through, if BB defend correctly.



He should not be donking on an A high flop, since it strongly favour you. This mean, he is bad, and I dont know, how this particular bad player construct his range. He could for sure have top pair, but its not exactly shocking to see a draw either. Moreover do you think, he would donk top pair and then fold to a jam? I think, its going in.

Yeah, so open 88 with better raise is something I have to think about.
About his shove, yes he will go in with all AT+ since he wanted to take initiative with the donk bet. I’m not sure if I should shove first I think I get too many folds in my position. Maybe I shouldn’t have raised him on the flop but just a call opens me to too many bluffs. Yes, KQs or KJs could have been non-shocking holdings. With that aggro we can exclude better sets
 
teebahnoo

teebahnoo

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I think its ok, if we want to bluffs with our draws in here. But if you always call flop with your draws, his push will be ok too.

Yeah I think raising the flop was a mistake, I wouldn’t play draws that way at 20 bb stack. Except maybe top flush draw.
 
Jon Poker

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I see no problem with the open raise - I like the sizing and we go to a flop multi way which brings us a set in a fairly wet board that should hit one of our opponents for sure.

The flop donk lead makes no sense to me but this is our opponent and nothing for us to concern ourselves with - the raise on the flop I dont like. No need for us to be cute here - just shove and get it over with- in theory the SB shouldnt be donking into two players without being pretty strong on an Ace hi flop - so no sense wasting time, just get the $$ in.

We do, we lose to a flush with 34s - I know its rough and no one likes losing but there are no mistakes in this hand except the raise size on the flop. The rest is just standard, nothing else we can do. You got your money in good and it did not hold - we cant be sad about getting our money in super good and being beaten by a lucky draw.

There is no sense beating yourself up about it, or being upset at the other player because the reality is you are going to win that hand alot and when you do you wont be posting it here for review or questioning your decision :)
 
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