$11 NL HE MTT: Did I play this poorly?

[Andyreas]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

11

Currency

$

Hey poker friends,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this hand.

Game is an $11 MTT and we're ITM already with 16 players left.

I'm in the BB with 12 BBs and get dealt JhTc.

It folds to the BN (>30BBs) who min-raises. I played on mobile, so no stats but I have tagged him as decent player.

My hand is definitely too poor for a 3-bet jam but I decide to call since it plays ok against BN range.

Flop (5.22 BBs): 35T rainbow

I check to him and he bets 1 BBs. I am a bit puzzled around the size, since it's a little small. I'm shortly thinking about a check-raise jam but I decide to call.

Turn (7.22 BBs): 7

I like the low card and am preparing for the check-raise jam move now. I check to him but unfortunately he checks back.

River (7.22 BBs): 4

Still no flush possible. While I dislike the possible straight with a 6, I decide to donk 60% of pot. He jams on me, I call for him to reveal A6o and I bust.


My questions are as follows:

• What would you do PF here?
• Would you opt for a raise on flop or a donk on turn?
• Should I have checked the river to him?

Happy to hear your thoughts. 😊

 

[weezy1312]

Pf : i would fold with 12 BB i would play shove\fold strategy, if button abusing his position and min raising every time to steal blinds i would shove from time to time with medium to good hands...
on the flop : if i get in this situation and i know my opponent cbet a lot of time i would check shove and end it there and i a happy to take all those blinds and not letting him outdraw me
river i wouldnt get to the river but in that case i would bet 30% 40% and fold to raise
of course this is just my personal opinion and it is far from being pro or solid XD

 

[Gritz18]

I can even give my opinion, but first I need to know the nationality of the BN player.🤔😁

 

[Marshmalo1994]

I'd probably wait a better hand to push, considering the prizes' jumps in that stage

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Completely fine to call here against a min-raise.

Flop and turn
When we defend our big blind by calling with a short stack like this, then the plan is to stack off on the flop, if we connect and check-fold, if we dont. Here you flopped top pair, which certainly puts you way ahead of his range. Yes he could still have you beat, but then its just your turn to die, unless you suck out on him. This is no different from, if you had a hand like KQs, rejammed it preflop and got snapped off by AQ.

If stacks were even shorter, then I would run a stop and go, which mean donk jamming the flop after calling preflop. Here though the SPR was around 2, which is perfect for a check-jam. He only bet 1BB, which is incredibly small, but I would still check-jam. The issue with just calling flop and checking turn is, that you are basically giving him two free cards to draw out on you, which is exactly, what ended up happening.

River
At this point your hand is to weak to bet for value. Check-fold or check-call if you think, he has enough bluffs in his range.

 

[eetenor]

Hey poker friends,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this hand.

Game is an $11 MTT and we're ITM already with 16 players left.

I'm in the BB with 12 BBs and get dealt JhTc.

It folds to the BN (>30BBs) who min-raises. I played on mobile, so no stats but I have tagged him as decent player.

My hand is definitely too poor for a 3-bet jam but I decide to call since it plays ok against BN range.

Flop (5.22 BBs): 35T rainbow

I check to him and he bets 1 BBs. I am a bit puzzled around the size, since it's a little small. I'm shortly thinking about a check-raise jam but I decide to call.

Turn (7.22 BBs): 7

I like the low card and am preparing for the check-raise jam move now. I check to him but unfortunately he checks back.

River (7.22 BBs): 4

Still no flush possible. While I dislike the possible straight with a 6, I decide to donk 60% of pot. He jams on me, I call for him to reveal A6o and I bust.


My questions are as follows:

• What would you do PF here?
• Would you opt for a raise on flop or a donk on turn?
• Should I have checked the river to him?

Happy to hear your thoughts. 😊

Fundiver makes a great point about having a preplan preflop at this stack depth-I agree with that-

So a second study point for you as played would be to dive deeper into finding data on the flop to have a clear plan when the V bets 1.

So what does a 1 bb bet represent on this flop?
We can start with the basics- typically it is very strong or weak---why can we conclude this?

Think about the BTN range-BTN opens 45% or more of range how much of that 45% is very strong on this board?

BTN range is mostly going to be weak here- weak on this board is worse than top pair
Ok a BTN range leans weak what do we want to do? Is our hand strong enough to slow play? Do we want to deny equity?----ez answer-- not denying equity killed us here

If the V does have a strong hand how does waiting to the turn to get all-in help us? Or would we fold to any bet on turn? Would we not have lost to AA on this runout too?
So the play vs a mostly weak range with some strong hands possible would be what on flop?

Of course this spot is much more complex like why did the the BTN only min open vs a 12bb stack - SB stack size is important here as it should cause the BTN to adapt their sizing if the SB has close to 30 or more

The BTN min open A6off suggests they may do that with most of their range so that makes their flop range lean weaker than GTO would be on that board- especially if the BTN would shove 22-66 preflop

 

[300HPGOD]

Pre: Not sure what else there is to do here than call based on buttons range is wide. I agree with you that its not a jam hand and it is a good hand so to see a flop with so its a call as you did. You did not mention the SB stack in this hand as they could/should affect buttons opening range as to whether they have SB covered or not but if SB is your stack or a little larger (say 15-20BBs) then I think buttons range is very wide. If SB were very short and was a jam stack then Button might open here a little tighter knowing they will have to call a lot of 6-7BB jams off which is 20% ish of their stack.

Flop. We have top pair with 12 BBs so I am not folding here so its all about best way to get the chips in and hopefully get called. Its definitely a check to the raiser as you did but then we get to an interesting decision spot here with their sizing. If they had bet 2.5 BBs or something near it I think its a simple check jam. With their bet sizing being so low though I would take a higher variance approach (to try to get some chips out of this since we are so low) and check raise here to 4 or 4.5 BBs. Better chance of being called yes and getting sucked out on but I will take that chance with top pair but only starting the hand with 12 BBs. Then my plan on the turn with action first on us would be to jam any card that comes as I am in this hand now to the end by raising so even if it were A, K, or Q I would be jamming turn. I dont hate at all (Think its a good move) to just check jam flop but I think with our stack its okay to take some risk and get more calls by going the check raise route rather than check jam. Either way though, you cant just call this on the flop with top pair. You should be already mentally committed to this pot so it should be either a jam flop or getting it on the turn type hand.

Turn: as played after just calling flop I think you do lead here. I dont have a lot of leads in my game (and wouldnt have here since flop play would have been different) but these spots that come up where a check behind is really really bad for us we just need to put a bet out there and if they fold they fold. We shouldnt be afraid (actually would applaud it) of a raise to our lead so if I got to this point in the hand I would just lead here and see what happens.

River: As played this is an interesting spot and not sure I know what to do as again I would not be at this point but I think I would lead here with top pair. Maybe villain (being wide) has some 3x, 5x, 7x, 4x hand that as this was played could call it off. Wouldnt call a jam with that hand but you could bet half pot ish or something instead of a check back that those hands would do often. Yes they can have 6x but there are enough hands in my opinion that will/could call that are worse that if you check will check back. They didnt bluff the turn when they could have so I am not that sure they bluff river if we gave them the chance. You did lead here, which I agree with, and got jammed on which is probably not good for us lol but at this point its a no brainer call with the chips we have already in the middle, starting with 12 BBs and having top pair.

 

[fundiver199]

Flop. We have top pair with 12 BBs so I am not folding here so its all about best way to get the chips in and hopefully get called. Its definitely a check to the raiser as you did but then we get to an interesting decision spot here with their sizing. If they had bet 2.5 BBs or something near it I think its a simple check jam. With their bet sizing being so low though I would take a higher variance approach (to try to get some chips out of this since we are so low) and check raise here to 4 or 4.5 BBs.

That is definitely also a viable option. Leaves around a half pot sized bet left for the turn, and then we basically jam any turn card, even those that are kind of bad like an overcard. Or we might get lucky to induce some kind of 3-bet spazz, which we then snap off. The most important point in this hand is, that we cant let people get away with incredible small C-bets like this. This is also, what software tells us. As C-bets get smaller and smaller, solvers check-raise more and more. So even with deep stacks this might still be a check-raise, when Villain bet so small.

In this case any size check-raise would likely have made the opponent fold, since he basically had nothing. But thats fine. We increase our stack 35% or so without showdown, which is a perfectly fine outcome. And we might also shut down this kind of action, so that he check back some flops instead of making these annoying small bets. Which then allow us to realise more equity, when we are the one, who missed the flop.

 

[Station_Master]

As others have said check raise flop is probably the play. As played on the river I think you can bet for value but must use a much smaller size, like 25%pot, which can get looked up by weak one pair hands and maybe A high.

 

[WellAA]

I check to him and he bets 1 BBs. I am a bit puzzled around the size, since it's a little small. I'm shortly thinking about a check-raise jam but I decide to call.

Hi Andy, maybe a check raise all-in would end the hand right there. We know that him could call with ace high though.

 

[hilary antonik filho]

Each hand, each move, each person is different, my opinion is sometimes absurd, but I will say, 90% of the time, I don't usually call with JT, except when I'm in the BB, so I'd wait for a better hand, as they say, the choice is yours

 

[najisami]

• What would you do PF here?
• Would you opt for a raise on flop or a donk on turn?
• Should I have checked the river to him?

Hello Andy,
There's not much to say about this hand really. There were two mistakes there and I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about..
Pre-flop was an obvious call with TJ.

The flop was a perfect check-shove and you decided otherwise (Deadly) !!
The 7 on the turn was a weird card, he would've probably called had you shove.
When that 4 hit the river, giving up (Check-fold) was the best option.

The thing is, that hand should've ended on the flop.

We sometimes make some decisions that are incompatible with the way we usually act. That happens mostly in moments when we lose focus. Just a part of the learning process...

 

[puzzlefish]

The consensus is call pre and jam on the flop. It's just another one of those hands where if they can get the runout, it will come. Might as well make them pay on the flop and at least that way you can write them off as a donkey when they call anyway with ace high.

 

[AKQ]

Hey poker friends,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this hand.

Game is an $11 MTT and we're ITM already with 16 players left.

I'm in the BB with 12 BBs and get dealt JhTc.

It folds to the BN (>30BBs) who min-raises. I played on mobile, so no stats but I have tagged him as decent player.

My hand is definitely too poor for a 3-bet jam but I decide to call since it plays ok against BN range.

Flop (5.22 BBs): 35T rainbow

I check to him and he bets 1 BBs. I am a bit puzzled around the size, since it's a little small. I'm shortly thinking about a check-raise jam but I decide to call.

Turn (7.22 BBs): 7

I like the low card and am preparing for the check-raise jam move now. I check to him but unfortunately he checks back.

River (7.22 BBs): 4

Still no flush possible. While I dislike the possible straight with a 6, I decide to donk 60% of pot. He jams on me, I call for him to reveal A6o and I bust.


My questions are as follows:

• What would you do PF here?
• Would you opt for a raise on flop or a donk on turn?
• Should I have checked the river to him?

Happy to hear your thoughts. 😊

You wanna hear my thoughts lmao
Hop in my brain for minute
Imma give you a stroke


The bet sizing is important but it messed your head up
His range was the most important thing Ax kq kj 99 88 down, sure their is some k10 q10 j10 plus overpairs and a set

but most didn't hit and the ten in your hand some would count as a blocker to the mathematical combos of it being dealt

but if he is a GTO decent player
he should be very readable/predictable if you understand GTO
the cbet of gto is small
1 BB blocker small
trust me the solver loves it but players are not computers
the only time flop bet sizing goes up for GTO players is flop composition and human errors

The errors they perform in GTO stem from classic exploitative play
Getting value by betting a 3/4 pot or half
When theyr'e supposed to be betting the same sizing with their entire range instead they hybradize GTO with prior human tendancys
betting bigger when he is protecting something Value or semi bluffing
(if he was some exploitative advanced Lunatic like me holding the nuts, he bet the 1 BB to induce a check raise from a great GTO Player that will pounce on the bet sizing read) BUT you are NOT playing someone at that level)
he bet 1 cuz he had crapola and prolly has a near 100% cbet
You cannot cbet 100% with your entire range
unless you bet 1bb


So don't overthink these tiny bets from normal opponents
It was exactly what your gut said it was ,he was weak

But that doesn't mean we have to check raise flop
if you check raise and he jams oesd with turn and river still to come
the fold equity he gives and the equity he still has for 2 cards to still hit
Justifies the JAM
but you could instead,...
we can call and bet turn Out of position after evaluating the turn(The A.I. likes it )

Then if you get reraised on the turn you can fold....because all his draws would flat call and see the river
Most Decent players will not go all in on the turn
When they have the option to close the turn action and realize their equity
Why would they JAM a turn donk bet from an opponent showing strength and could easily have any 2 pair..while theyr'e still drawing to only a river card

But if you got reraised on the turn...he is so polarized now you can see he has overpair twopair or set

So the flop tendancys for GTO draws are very aggressive usually
Though this was not the case
we dont play against 1 hand 57
we play to beat his entire range
and we are highly aware of what types of hands he would 3bet jam the flop with
and they are in his range and we do not want thhat to happen
for then his range is in theory unexploitable
and your'e have to guess whether he has a draw or better and be put in the worst place to make a tough decision


You still alive???....Andreas?
Somebody get this man ACes!

 

[AKQ]

Pre: Not sure what else there is to do here than call based on buttons range is wide. I agree with you that its not a jam hand and it is a good hand so to see a flop with so its a call as you did. You did not mention the SB stack in this hand as they could/should affect buttons opening range as to whether they have SB covered or not but if SB is your stack or a little larger (say 15-20BBs) then I think buttons range is very wide. If SB were very short and was a jam stack then Button might open here a little tighter knowing they will have to call a lot of 6-7BB jams off which is 20% ish of their stack.

Flop. We have top pair with 12 BBs so I am not folding here so its all about best way to get the chips in and hopefully get called. Its definitely a check to the raiser as you did but then we get to an interesting decision spot here with their sizing. If they had bet 2.5 BBs or something near it I think its a simple check jam. With their bet sizing being so low though I would take a higher variance approach (to try to get some chips out of this since we are so low) and check raise here to 4 or 4.5 BBs. Better chance of being called yes and getting sucked out on but I will take that chance with top pair but only starting the hand with 12 BBs. Then my plan on the turn with action first on us would be to jam any card that comes as I am in this hand now to the end by raising so even if it were A, K, or Q I would be jamming turn. I dont hate at all (Think its a good move) to just check jam flop but I think with our stack its okay to take some risk and get more calls by going the check raise route rather than check jam. Either way though, you cant just call this on the flop with top pair. You should be already mentally committed to this pot so it should be either a jam flop or getting it on the turn type hand.

Turn: as played after just calling flop I think you do lead here. I dont have a lot of leads in my game (and wouldnt have here since flop play would have been different) but these spots that come up where a check behind is really really bad for us we just need to put a bet out there and if they fold they fold. We shouldnt be afraid (actually would applaud it) of a raise to our lead so if I got to this point in the hand I would just lead here and see what happens.

River: As played this is an interesting spot and not sure I know what to do as again I would not be at this point but I think I would lead here with top pair. Maybe villain (being wide) has some 3x, 5x, 7x, 4x hand that as this was played could call it off. Wouldnt call a jam with that hand but you could bet half pot ish or something instead of a check back that those hands would do often. Yes they can have 6x but there are enough hands in my opinion that will/could call that are worse that if you check will check back. They didnt bluff the turn when they could have so I am not that sure they bluff river if we gave them the chance. You did lead here, which I agree with, and got jammed on which is probably not good for us lol but at this point its a no brainer call with the chips we have already in the middle, starting with 12 BBs and having top pair.

" If SB were very short and was a jam stack then Button might open here a little tighter knowing they will have to call a lot of 6-7BB jams off which is 20% ish of their stack."

More info on his range is always available to those who seek it with wisdom!
and turn donk bets ,being bad plays lol

Who said that , was it ABC or Exploitative players of the past age
I bet it was
Well they suck now so ....lol
I'm trying to get the solver and the AI to FUUUck and make me a new baby

You have to be better than those that came before you
and that usually means doing what they would not

How you been 300HPGOD?
good seeing you

 

[AKQ]

What range/hands would GTO bet 6 BB into an 18 BB pot
would he do it with Ax or two pair, set?

 

[AKQ]

nope

 

[Poker_Mike]

Hey poker friends,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this hand.

Game is an $11 MTT and we're ITM already with 16 players left.

I'm in the BB with 12 BBs and get dealt JhTc.

It folds to the BN (>30BBs) who min-raises. I played on mobile, so no stats but I have tagged him as decent player.

My hand is definitely too poor for a 3-bet jam but I decide to call since it plays ok against BN range.

Flop (5.22 BBs): 35T rainbow

I check to him and he bets 1 BBs. I am a bit puzzled around the size, since it's a little small. I'm shortly thinking about a check-raise jam but I decide to call.

Turn (7.22 BBs): 7

I like the low card and am preparing for the check-raise jam move now. I check to him but unfortunately he checks back.

River (7.22 BBs): 4

Still no flush possible. While I dislike the possible straight with a 6, I decide to donk 60% of pot. He jams on me, I call for him to reveal A6o and I bust.


My questions are as follows:

• What would you do PF here?
• Would you opt for a raise on flop or a donk on turn?
• Should I have checked the river to him?

Happy to hear your thoughts. 😊

Andy - you have posted some interesting threads for hands you lost.

What I really like is that you include your "thinking" or poker logic - reasoning of what you did on every street. And honestly I find your logic reasonable. In fact I have lost hands the exact same way.

But we don't want to lose these hands - especially the large number of chips - so....

I want to start with some obvious things....

You are playing out of position....not my favorite position to play from - and it explains how you lost so many chips.

You are choosing to battle on the river. As you know - the more cards that come out - the more of a chance your opponent has to make a strong hand. If the board didn't help you - then there is a good chance it helped him.

I have done these things too - not trying to be hyper critical of you or your play.

Now to answer your questions from my perspective..

• What would you do PF here? - ***I'm ok with the flat because you are shortish and OOP.
• Would you opt for a raise on flop or a donk on turn? ***Either of these would be ok if you are sure you are ahead. But my question - if you really think you are ahead - do you want him to fold? For example a check shove on the flop would encourage a fold. And also now we know that his 1 BB bet on the flop was a weak bet. So he likely would have folded and you would have picked up a few BB.
• Should I have checked the river to him? ****This question points out that he is in position and that is strong for him because he decides to check the turn to try to catch an Ace or straight card. And "bink" he gets his miracle card on the river and exploits your confusion about his weak play.....because he hits his nuts on the river. If you checked the river and he shoved would you have called to exploit his "obvious bluff" - which now we know was not a bluff - was the nuts!

 

[fundiver199]

But my question - if you really think you are ahead - do you want him to fold?

Its fine to make people fold a worse hand, when we are out of position, and they are only going to put in chips on later streets, when they improve to a hand, which beat us. And this was clearly such a situation. The opponent is not calling a river bet with A6 high or for that matter a pair of 6. And if he wanted to bluff, he would have done it on the flop and turn. So if the river bricks out, he just fold or check back, and Hero wins nothing extra. Which mean that by slowplaying a weak top pair Hero is only allowing Villain to freeroll him.

 

[ADRI7HO]

Hey poker friends,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this hand.

Game is an $11 MTT and we're ITM already with 16 players left.

I'm in the BB with 12 BBs and get dealt JhTc.

It folds to the BN (>30BBs) who min-raises. I played on mobile, so no stats but I have tagged him as decent player.

My hand is definitely too poor for a 3-bet jam but I decide to call since it plays ok against BN range.

Flop (5.22 BBs): 35T rainbow

I check to him and he bets 1 BBs. I am a bit puzzled around the size, since it's a little small. I'm shortly thinking about a check-raise jam but I decide to call.

Turn (7.22 BBs): 7

I like the low card and am preparing for the check-raise jam move now. I check to him but unfortunately he checks back.

River (7.22 BBs): 4

Still no flush possible. While I dislike the possible straight with a 6, I decide to donk 60% of pot. He jams on me, I call for him to reveal A6o and I bust.


My questions are as follows:

• What would you do PF here?
• Would you opt for a raise on flop or a donk on turn?
• Should I have checked the river to him?

Happy to hear your thoughts. 😊

Probably, if you reraise preflop, the opponent will fold, but since I know what the opponent's card was, it's easy to tell the truth.
In the given situation (if I don't know the opponent's hand), I probably would have played it advantageously like you, maybe preflop I would have gone all-in as an overbet because of my smaller stack to take the pot.