11 mtt just baffled myself and i did it

Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
Ok some might know i have been thinking a lot about how i play poker recently. This is the kind of play which is making me think. only read i have is tht he is slightly loose and defends blinds a lot never lets anyone steal for free. before i rsed i knew if he pushed i was calling someone tell me why i should either stop or carry on this kind of play:)


pokerstars Game #10063576480: Tournament #50597130, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2007/05/23 - 08:45:15 (ET)
Table '50597130 43' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Stefanicov (13175 in chips)
Seat 2: dlighted1 (6210 in chips)
Seat 3: randalK278 (7120 in chips)
Seat 4: 1bag (8225 in chips)
Seat 5: Bob Toast (6991 in chips)
Seat 6: PokMikeFever (2335 in chips)
Seat 7: Dude0815 (3155 in chips)
Seat 8: banthum (4010 in chips)
Seat 9: coup royall (6375 in chips)
Stefanicov: posts the ante 25
dlighted1: posts the ante 25
randalK278: posts the ante 25
1bag: posts the ante 25
Bob Toast: posts the ante 25
PokMikeFever: posts the ante 25
Dude0815: posts the ante 25
banthum: posts the ante 25
coup royall: posts the ante 25
Stefanicov: posts small blind 100
dlighted1: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Stefanicov [6d Ad]
randalK278: folds
1bag: folds
Bob Toast: folds
PokMikeFever: folds
Dude0815: folds
banthum: folds
coup royall: folds
Stefanicov: raises 599 to 799
dlighted1: raises 5386 to 6185 and is all-in
Stefanicov: calls 5386
*** FLOP *** [4h 4c 9c]
*** TURN *** [4h 4c 9c] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [4h 4c 9c 8d] [2h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Stefanicov: shows [6d Ad] (a pair of Fours)
dlighted1: shows [Qh 7s] (a pair of Fours - lower kicker)
Stefanicov collected 12595 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 12595 | Rake 0
Board [4h 4c 9c 8d 2h]
Seat 1: Stefanicov (small blind) showed [6d Ad] and won (12595) with a pair of Fours
Seat 2: dlighted1 (big blind) showed [Qh 7s] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 3: randalK278 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 1bag folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Bob Toast folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: PokMikeFever folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Dude0815 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: banthum folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: coup royall (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Stop it, calling 26xBB shoves with A6 is something you dont want to be doing. Ok, you had a solid read, and its probably a re-steal, but the likelyhood of his cards being live is high, so at best your 60% favourite, at worst your dominated. I cant find a call here.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

Caveman Eye Surgeon
Loyaler
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Total posts
3,769
Awards
2
Yeah that is just suicidal. You have too many chips to be making idiotic plays like this regardless of the villain's range.

Good rule of thumb: if villain is doing this routinely, just wait for a good opportunity with a big pair and you'll get paid off. That opportunity may not come this tournament, but if you put this in your player notes, you may benefit from it in the future.
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
Ok some might know i have been thinking a lot about how i play poker recently. This is the kind of play which is making me think. only read i have is tht he is slightly loose and defends blinds a lot never lets anyone steal for free. before i rsed i knew if he pushed i was calling someone tell me why i should either stop or carry on this kind of play:)



I like the aggressive raise and blind steal attempt with A6s from the CO in an uncontested pot, but if you have such a read on this opponent then its best to let it go, particularly when you do it having in the back of your mind that you will call if he pushes. That's the part I don't like the most, because you won't be dominating any hands, or very, very few at best. You'll be either dominated or against 2 live cards, so why risk half your stack and the chip lead on the table? Even if you were right you really shouldn't be results oriented here, no offense this was a bad play. If you're willing to fold to a shove then perhaps its ok to raise and go for the steal.

A better question is what range you need to make this type of play knowing your opponents tendencies. I'm sure everyone agrees that A6s doesn't belong to that range.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

Guest
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Total posts
1,759
You can't defend this type of play, ever. And you definitely can't be results oriented and say it worked this time. Yes, the A6 is suited, but still no need for such a play with that type of hand. You said only read you had on him was that he was slightly loose. You shouldn't make this play if he's slightly loose, rock solid tight, maniacal loose, straight up, ect---there's just no reason ever to make this type of play in this situation. If you take into accound your chip stack, the villain's chip stack, all the other players' chip stacks, the blinds, ect, it all tells you that making this type of play is very unnecessary and reckless.

You're chip leader at the table by a comfortable margin, blinds are very low compared to your stack, at this point there is absolutely no need to unnecessarily risk half your chips on A6 suited. Yes agression is sometimes a good thing when you're chip leader, so you don't get stagnant and start playing away from the style that got you the chiplead, but there's a difference between timely, situational agression and outright, reckless, unnecessary agression--what you did was absolutely unnecessary and not a smart use of your big stack.

There's never any need to call off half your chips in at best 60/40 races when you're the overwhelming chip leader. If the villain had had about 2K in chips, then I would say it is OK to call the shove, but half your stack should never be called off with A6, especially when you're the chip leader in such a comfortable situation (ie. blinds and size of other stacks).
 
rob5775

rob5775

Legend
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Total posts
1,002
I think the original raise was spot on, but once he comes over the top for half my chips I'm letting it go. Without knowing the results, I'm not willing to call off half my chips on the chance that I have a better hand. Like TB said, its not likely were a favorite here and if we are its not by much. Definately not getting the odds here to call.

This happens if you try stealing often from the small blind, you run the risk of a push. You met resistance, the BB is telling he has a hand (even if he doesnt), adios A6.
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
Ok i dont care i am going to defend this play fck it.

this is what worries me about poker in general.You all come on here slating the call saying u didnt need to do way too much risk. Ok so will someone please tell me why i win mtts why i cash big regularly because i always make plays like these sometimes they work sometimes they dont. math says i am ahead i will take the risk when i have the chips to.

in the above example u say i am a comfortable chip leader on my table so what i dont cxare about my table. To me the table is a means to an end and tht end is to be chip leader. sometimes i fail at this sometimes i dont. but if i lose where am i at still v good chipstack if i win where am i at i am 3rd in the whole mtt giving me a greater chance when the blinds get big or to male a mistake which i do regularly and did in this tourny.

This is exactly why i am having so much trouble with poker atm everyone here slates how i play as crazy in risk. I agree i play risky a lot i never let up will never sit on chips.

On the forum i have one of the best records in mtts and sngs and yet i play a style that none of you play. My win percentage is good i have cashed out 5k and still have few hundred floating about online from 400$ i have deposited. Everyone here plays a certain way and i respect that. i tryed to play tht style for a while recently and i lost so much it hurt. I took a few days off and played my way and presto i have 2 wins and a 19th and a early bust out in the 4 mtts ive played ( 2 sng numbers tho).

i guess what troubles me the most is that everyone says i play wrong it will catch up and i will stop getting lucky. that i should play the set abc poker tht 99% of the posters here aspire to. There are many great players here chuck tenbob dorkus to name a few. take their ccash out and have similar percantages to them all yet i play nothing like them. i am at the point where im either gonna try and learn the style so many here post about or im gonna refine my own way of playing.

my god this is a long rambling pile of **** oh well

ill ask a question should i keep with how i play or go to the regular style
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

Guest
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Total posts
1,759
Ok some might know i have been thinking a lot about how i play poker recently. This is the kind of play which is making me think. only read i have is tht he is slightly loose and defends blinds a lot never lets anyone steal for free. before i rsed i knew if he pushed i was calling someone tell me why i should either stop or carry on this kind of play:)
Stef, we were simply answering a question that you asked us. All we did was respond to the question, there's no need to get defensive. I don't think any one of us that responded above (with possible exception of the guy who posted that weird pic) were in any way criticizing your overall playing style. We were answering the question posed to us, by you, on this particular hand and what we think is the best possible way to play the hand; it was just a basic HA. If what we said was against the style that you play, then so be it, but I don't think we were (ok I'll start saying I, just in case what I say doesn't apply for everyone) I know I wasn't criticizing your play or telling you to change your style of play. I was telling you what I thought was the best way to play the hand you posted in your OP. I was giving you MY opinion, nothing more.

I wasn't telling you that your style so far is completely wrong, or that it doesn't work (I don't know why you thought you had to show "proof" that is does by telling us your wins/cashes, ect) all I was doing was telling you that I would not have made a similar play with that hand you posted in the OP. And yes, I wouldn't make a similar play in the future. And then I told you why I wouldn't do so, in my first post in this thread, nothing more. I stated my opinion on how I would play it, I didn't tell you to stop playing your style, that it was wrong, ect, I said my opinions on how it should be played. If you want to continue playing your style (and are successful with it) then go for it, I'm not stopping you and no one else is going to stop you.

From you're above post, it seems that you think we were all attacking you're style of play or stating that it is "wrong." I don't think we were stating that your style was wrong, or attacking it in any way, but stating our opinions on a hand and it did happen to differ from they way you played the hand. Don't ask for honest opinions, where one possible outcome is opposite answers to ones you're expecting, and then get defensive over why we're stating our opinions. You have to expect honest opinions that will differ from your own opinions.

And to answer your last question that you posed in the last your last post here on if you should change or keep your current style of play, I think you already answered what you would do in your post; but, I would suggest that you should stay with the style you're comfortable with, because if you're not comfortable playing the way you are in poker, you will never be successful. Don't try and completely overhaul your style, because you'll just only get frustrated when you lose some tourneys with a new style or lose some big pots or just lose out o big pots because you didn't play a hand a certain way, ect.

Just try to make gradual changes, if you are willing to change your style a bit in order to improve your game. Small changes at a time will probably be the best way to approach this. I never asked, I don't know if you already posted this, but how long have you been playing for and how long have you been successful for? If it is less than a year, then you can't really put a lot of judgment on your MTT results. Anyways, now that you ask, I would suggest that you change your game a little, and learn when taking certain risks are smart moves, and when taking other risks are completely reckless moves. I don't think a complete overhaul is needed, just a bit of risk managment and a few other things would probably help your game out a lot. I understand that you think risks are necessary for your game to succeed, but think of it like this: if you're the better player, why would you ever want to put half your stack at risk(in this particular setting, with blinds, stack size, ect), in a situation that is at best that you're a 60%/40% favorite? You never want to be leaving it up to such odds, preflop, in situations like above (13K stack, 100/200 blinds, nice table) in MTTs, there's just no need to make such a play when you know you're the better player. You want to control the actions as a better player, not leave it up to a 60/40 chance preflop.
 
Last edited:
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
I see what you were doing, it's just that A6 is a yucky hand to make that stand with because of how often you're dominated. Even when your A high is the best hand, as has been stated, the other player has live cards the huge majority of the time. You were about a 60/40 favorite in your situation and it was the best you could realistically hope for. The more likely result will be you being dominated by a better A.

Calling off chips (i.e. no fold equity and not being the aggressor) when you're sometimes slightly ahead and very often dominated is not really what you should be going for with a big stack.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.682% 55.87% 01.81% 1171920110 38011089.00 { As6d }
Hand 1: 42.318% 40.51% 01.81% 849630112 38011089.00 { random }


Do you really want to put your tourney on the line with those numbers?

(and that range is being very generous to villain's range. I really don't see him pushing with 23 or 62 or whatever)

I know you're strong enough not to have to take that gamble since you'll be doing fine by just playing small pot poker, and getting your whole stack in only when you have a monster or have a perfect read and get a solid bluff in.

If you play 'crazy' in tournies, and have a long-term winning record, then that's great."If it ain't broke, don't fix it.". If you're regularly making calls like this though, then your long-term results won't be pretty.
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
big thing i didnt point out well i only make these calls with a stack to do it as u say small pot poker wins me enuff so in above hand i lose i have average i winim in top 3 so worth a 57 42 as it turns out to be to make d good stack. wasnt for all my chips if my tourny on it i obv fold for better spot
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Total posts
641
Stefan, why not raise him allin from the start?
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
coz thn he folds i want him to try to resteal thus getting the money in
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
coz thn he folds i want him to try to resteal thus getting the money in

What we're trying to tell you is that your hand is not strong enough to do this. Even on the rare cases that he does go for the re-steal with crap and you "pick it off" you're not much better than the good side of a coinflip to win.

If he has a weaker A, your kicker is so weak that you're barely favored and often split the pot because a 6 kicker often doesn't come into play. However, if he has a stronger A, which is much more likely in the first place, the kicker starts getting high enough to matter and you become dominated. Any pair 66 or better has you in bad shape as well. You're in "good shape" against virtually nothing (Two rags with one being a 6? nothing else).

Chuck showed you're approx. the better end of a coinflip against a range of ANY two cards. That's if he's pushing 23o! You've got to realize why calling off so many chips is bad here.
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
i know tht i dont make the play often but as one offs it works because however weak i am ^^^^^^^^^^ chuck i am ahead so in the long run it is a profitable play. the odds work out to a race so for one offs ok

edit i didnt know this at the time but i did know i was favourite over random hand

and yes u take out the rubbish random hands i am behind but on my read which is the only reason i made the play was tht he would push any 2 making me fav
 
rob5775

rob5775

Legend
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Total posts
1,002
I think with your style/aggressiveness what you should be looking at is the setup. You lay this down, but when you pick up a hand worth calling a blatent resteal push, then have have the guy right were you want him- dominated.

The great thing about your style of play is you could be raising with almost anything. If your making the same SB/BB raise with A6, or Q8, or AA, then he will always be guessing. Wait for him to make a mistake and push when you have a dominant hand. Your in enough of a chip lead that you can be patient.

And, steve, I don't think anyone is coming down on you, I think you should keep your style, just refine it a little. I hope this post made sense.
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
k as said above he defended blinds he would push here i was pretty sure and against random hand i am ahead if he gets lucky and hits a hand i have average stack if he doesnt i have v good stack
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
i know tht i dont make the play often but as one offs it works because however weak i am ^^^^^^^^^^ chuck i am ahead so in the long run it is a profitable play. the odds work out to a race so for one offs ok

edit i didnt know this at the time but i did know i was favourite over random hand

and yes u take out the rubbish random hands i am behind but on my read which is the only reason i made the play was tht he would push any 2 making me fav

Cash games and tourneys differ for this reason: cash games, you always get your money in if you think you're ahead. Tourneys, you should be waiting for 70/30 advantages at least before committing all your chips. Survival and chip accumulation is key in tournaments - not EV.

Would you take a 51/49 shot for all your chips in a tourney?
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
Cash games and tourneys differ for this reason: cash games, you always get your money in if you think you're ahead. Tourneys, you should be waiting for 70/30 advantages at least before committing all your chips. Survival and chip accumulation is key in tournaments - not EV.

Would you take a 51/49 shot for all your chips in a tourney?

again i point out it wasnt all my chips if i lost i had average stack
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Sorry, my bad. Okay, edited:

Cash games and tourneys differ for this reason: cash games, you always get your money in if you think you're ahead. Tourneys, you should be waiting for 70/30 advantages at least before committing half your stack :/
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
Sorry, my bad. Okay, edited:

Cash games and tourneys differ for this reason: cash games, you always get your money in if you think you're ahead. Tourneys, you should be waiting for 70/30 advantages at least before committing half your stack :/

hehe much better

i can say tht at moments i will if i feel it will help me in going deep. plus ahlf your stack has to be held in relation to the blinds
 
Last edited:
HartAttack3

HartAttack3

Visionary
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Total posts
656
its been said, "if it aint broke dont fix it" I applaud you on a great read and a great play. What everyone fails to realize is you have the better hand, dont we all aspire to the mantra "get all your chips in with the best hand"? If he has a bigger stack then yea, fold, but if you have him covered, esp if your avg if u lose, id take that every time.

If nobody else will, Ill defend your play. We are results oriented like it or not, thats why we post bad beats because the RESULT was not in our favor. If your winning, dont change because of what anyone says.

And for the record, I play the exact opposite of you, I would never have called that regardless of what my read on villain is. Nevertheless I respect good winning play, and if you cash as much as you say, then maybe you should teach me a few things lol.
 
tiltboy

tiltboy

Guest
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Total posts
120
You should play the game that suits you. I cannot see any reason for you to change if your winning so much.

I just have a concern for your logic, you say this guy defends his blinds yet you try to raise him with A-6, which by your reckoning if called (very likely) could mean he has anything.

You also have made a decision without consideration (you intend to call whatever he bets in response to your raise).

What is the intention of your raise on this guy because you say he wis unlikely to fold his hand. If he called you have no idea what he is playing with so why not outplay someone like this on the flop and save the raises for when you have premium hands.
 
Top