$109 NL HE MTT: ATs in a 3-bet pot

[Andyreas]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

109

VP$IP

41

PFR

32

Currency

$

Hey forum,

I'd like some feedback on this hand which I played.

I qualified for the Main Event on BOL again and this time I didn't multi table as much, just the Weekly Freeroll on CardsChat.

I pulled Villians Stats from my HUD which is based on 41 hands but I think there were much fewer hands when I played this hand and the stats didn't seem that 'loose' when I played this hand.

Somehow my Hand2Note TXT-output does not work with the Hand Converter, so I am sharing as a picture:

I won't share my thinking and results at this moment but will do when some peeps have jumped in here.

Let me know if you agree on my game or if I should have done something differently.

Thanks in advance.

 

[jordanbillie]

I literally don't know how to play this deep.

My intuition is telling me that I would just fold preflop, but I don't know if that is good advice.

 

[Station_Master]

The dreaded 3bet then triple off. I hate this type of spot, you have a bluff catcher and you called it off which is fair enough, but you will be shown an overpair, a 7 or 98s alot. His flop sizing is also pretty big popularizing right from the start, which suggest a draw or thick value. In theory he shouldn't be bluffing missed flush draws on the river, so it lends him toward 98, 87 or 76 maybe AA with weaker overpairs often getting checked back. I probably prefer a fold on the river just because alot of villains wont pull the trigger on a big river bluff and one of the obvious draws got there. On the other hand I tend not to play such high stakes so some villains will be capable of bluffing.

You weren't tempted to bluff raise all-in with the top boat blocker then?

 

[puzzlefish]

Almost always an overpair or a boat just leading you on here. I sometimes call it down looking for the drawing AK, AQ, KQ, etc busted flush draws but it just never seems to be anything other than something that beats that TPTK.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
This deep you can open bigger than 2,5BB. Calling the 3-bet is probably the GTO line, but if you dont need to worry about getting exploited, because nobody know, how you play, then folding is certainly the easy solution, which saves a lot of headache later.

Flop
As played not much to do here other than check-call, when you flop top pair.

Turn
No draws have completed, and as played this hand is probably high enough in your range, that you have to call again. But at this point I am really hoping, that he slow down and check back the river.

River
He did not slow down, instead he sized up. And the 6 is not a complete blank, since it completed 98, and he could certainly have 98s. So there are 4 more value combos, you lose to, and 4 less natural bluffs. He could still have busted spades or be bluffing with just two overcards. But without reads I prefer to fold. From a theoretical standpoint you are allowed to fold some hands to each bet, and this one is no longer the top of your range. You can have TT or 77, you can have 98s, you can have a few 7X or you can have JJ. So its not like, you are folding 100% of your range, which is something, you want to avoid against good players.

 

[mariussica88]

Every time I see this....3bet pre-flop and the bet bet bet....in my case when he bets 2/3 pot on the river he has something like JJ+...even like that with your cards top pair top kicker I don't think I would fold either.

 

[fundiver199]

Almost always an overpair or a boat just leading you on here. I sometimes call it down looking for the drawing AK, AQ, KQ, etc busted flush draws but it just never seems to be anything other than something that beats that TPTK.

Yeah I agree. Even good regs tend to almost always have it, if we call down here. Perhaps they are not even betting JJ or QQ again. But whatever they have, it usually beats AT. If Hero was a little bit deeper, I would almost rather turn AT into a bluff by check-jamming the river rather than check-calling. The theory behind this being, that we block top boat. But here the Villain would be getting 3:1, and I am not sure, we can get hands like AA or KK to fold for that price.

 

[Poker_Mike]

I agree with the thread - your villain has an overpair.

Preflop re-raise
Flop bet
Turn bet
River shove

Is it early in the MTT? Is that why everybody is so deep? Is this also why you decided he might be bluffing?

Preflop you are calling a 3-bet with AT OOP - for what purpose?

If you 4-bet him preflop then you might find a fold if he 5-bet shoved?
If you check raise him on the flop - then you might find a fold if he shoved?

 

[Statsman1]

Feels to me like Villain had A7h, or an overpair...tried to win preflop, and the flop just helped him lead you down the path. He wasn't afraid of you just calling him down, as he kept leading out...so unless he had squat and was counting on you chasing the flush, which you would have missed, and thought the river bet would lose you, you were dead in the water.

Hope the latter was what happened for you, but I think the A7 suited or an overpair is what he had.

Of course, if he had 85, then I hope you destroyed him later on.

 

[dallam]

I would just say here, how opp played with the numbers through this hand
Flop 55% raise
Turn 55% raise
River 77% raise
These sizing-bet numbers probably opted-in, so he just clicked each time to them, not generating random numbers to raise. So its kind of a pattern from opp that you experienced. I would say definitely the 8bb bet to the 2.5bb is a very solid, learned number to put from that position.

Which probably indicates a range to do, however this person just created his position to get comfortable to each street if you not 4-bet, so may not only the top pairs are leaning to make a 8bb bet in this scenario.
For me these deep games are so complex, I could not perform on them well (yet, but maybe never ) My read is an obv. over-pair, but still would make the calls as I'm tend to overthink and see in them the possible bluffs which could run once they are in favourable positions - and our check-check-check line not looking strong. However we do need to have here something to make those calls twice, so the river raise is still very massive and targeting all of our bluff-catcher hands... AK blocking an A and a K may could feel the courage to make a one-last-bluff, but at this point I don't see if we catching any other combos to this point.
Well, I still hope you did.

These are really nice feedbacks and personally I'm glad that pre-fold was mentioned. I'm always saying if you're not sure you better to fold, and we were a bit disatvantage pre- already that maybe its not the most prettiest way, but bb saver. And maybe if you investigate more the table, you will see how frequent and from which position is this player is pushing, and you can may add more bluffs into his range, or cut them less. The check-shove is something is really fit in this level, but I agree, that was already a lot investment and no hands will get away.
So a very learningful, hard hand. Thanks for posting!

 

[kitchy65]

Hey forum,

I'd like some feedback on this hand which I played.

I don't understand what you were doing calling every street tbh.

I'm putting the villain on a big pair. KK,QQ, or A7 . I don't think he has AA

When villain raises your flop bet, you could have pretty much found where you were in the hand by re-raising 30BB...if he has the nuts he's shoving, if he has the over pair, he's calling then checking himself on later streets.

Either way you would have only risked 30BB....calling all the way as you did, you had no idea where you were and just hoped he was bluffing. You could have played it much better than you did.

What did he have?

 

[Andyreas]

Thank you all for your feedback and thoughts on this hand.

Much appreciated, as always!

I'll post the results at the bottom of this post but let me get to all of you first.

I literally don't know how to play this deep.

My intuition is telling me that I would just fold preflop, but I don't know if that is good advice.

Well with late registration you rarely get this deep, so I see your point.
Any advice is appreciated, so thank you!

And while I see that ATs is not the best hand in a 3-bet pot, I assume(d) since we're both in late positions, both the opening and 3-bet ranges are a little wider than if it was UTG vs. UTG+1. Here I might have folded this hand indeed.

you will be shown an overpair, a 7 or 98s alot. His flop sizing is also pretty big popularizing right from the start, which suggest a draw or thick value. In theory he shouldn't be bluffing missed flush draws on the river, so it lends him toward 98, 87 or 76 maybe AA with weaker overpairs often getting checked back.

Do you think he would 3-bet 98s? That 3-bet range would be even much wider than I assumed. I also didn't assume he has a 7, since there are already 2 on the board and I'm not sure if A7 would be in the 3-bet range but ofc nothing is impossible.

And to the bet sizes: I have seen people c-betting with all sorts of sizes from 20% of pot to half pot, so that did not worry me too much. But indeed, I need to learn to evaluate all the information.

You weren't tempted to bluff raise all-in with the top boat blocker then?

Haha no, I do not have all those fancy plays yet in my books.

This deep you can open bigger than 2,5BB.

So something like 3 BBs? Or even more? I would have opened 3 BBs indeed but Idk why I didn't do it here.

he could certainly have 98s.

So you agree in would be in his 3-bet range? I honestly did not even take it into account.

He could still have busted spades or be bluffing with just two overcards. But without reads I prefer to fold.

I totally agree here. Most players slow down their c-bets after one or even two streets. But three barrel bluffs occured to me very rare and there might be much better cases to put so many chips in.

Every time I see this....3bet pre-flop and the bet bet bet....in my case when he bets 2/3 pot on the river he has something like JJ+...even like that with your cards top pair top kicker I don't think I would fold either.

Thanks for this honest feedback. At least it's nice to see someone agreeing it was sorta hart to fold.

Is it early in the MTT? Is that why everybody is so deep? Is this also why you decided he might be bluffing?

Yes, it was only a few hands in. On flop, I would never fold my TPTK since it could also just be a c-bet. But I agree, I should have put in some more thinking on Turn and especially river.

Preflop you are calling a 3-bet with AT OOP - for what purpose?

We are both in late-ish positions and since my raising range is wider, I'd assume his 3-bet range is a little wider too.

If you 4-bet him preflop then you might find a fold if he 5-bet shoved?
If you check raise him on the flop - then you might find a fold if he shoved?

Absolutely a "yes" to both questions. Are you asking to trigger my decision to fold or are those actual suggestions for playing this hand?

Of course, if he had 85, then I hope you destroyed him later on.

That's not what he had but I also did not get the chance to destroy him since I was moved tables a few hands later.

So a very learningful, hard hand. Thanks for posting!

I'm also learning by every hand I post, so glad you enjoyed this thread.

I don't understand what you were doing calling every street tbh.

I don't donk bet very often. Except as c-bet when I get other callers. Otherwise I let the pre-flop raiser take the lead.

But I see your point that it would be an option here with my unclear TPTK.

What did he have?

As most of you have already assumed, he had an overpair indeed.

It wasn't the Aces, Kings or Queens but the Jacks.

I really appreciated all of your feedback and will try to keep it in mind in a similar situation like this.

 

[kitchy65]

Good follow up....

When that situation happens again, it's always wiser to be aggressive, take control of the pot and find out where he is in the hand, this slows him down (or not) and actually saves you chips.

An 'Ace' on later streets could have cost you your whole stack...had he been sat there with A7, he would have played exactly the same way.

What impressed me is you didn't feel the need to defend your play. Good stuff.

You were not doing anything other than passively handing him your chips.

 

[Station_Master]

Wow JJ I find the river bet too thin as you obviously have something at that point, though as it turned out you had the exact hand to pay him off

 

[fundiver199]

Wow JJ I find the river bet too thin as you obviously have something at that point, though as it turned out you had the exact hand to pay him off

Its always a bit annoying to get "pipped", meaning the opponent has the worst possible better hand. However in this situation I think, we can limit the damage by folding to that big river bet.

Do you think he would 3-bet 98s? That 3-bet range would be even much wider than I assumed. I also didn't assume he has a 7, since there are already 2 on the board and I'm not sure if A7 would be in the 3-bet range but ofc nothing is impossible.

As you say, this is a late position confrontation, so his 3-bet range should be pretty wide. This is also the whole reason, why ATs is a call preflop against a balanced player. If you put him on a narrow range, then ATs is an easy fold out of position. Say you have a HUD running, and it shows VPIP 18 / PFR 14 / 3-bet 5 over 400 hands, then you just fold ATs. To call here you want an opponent with at least a 8-10% 3-bet percentage.

So something like 3 BBs? Or even more? I would have opened 3 BBs indeed but Idk why I didn't do it here.

Personally I use 3BB, but even larger sizings could also be justified, although maybe more so in soft games.

 

[Jogo4]

Hey forum,

I'd like some feedback on this hand which I played.

I qualified for the Main Event on BOL again and this time I didn't multi table as much, just the Weekly Freeroll on CardsChat.

I pulled Villians Stats from my HUD which is based on 41 hands but I think there were much fewer hands when I played this hand and the stats didn't seem that 'loose' when I played this hand.

Somehow my Hand2Note TXT-output does not work with the Hand Converter, so I am sharing as a picture:

I won't share my thinking and results at this moment but will do when some peeps have jumped in here.

Let me know if you agree on my game or if I should have done something differently.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jogo4]

this is very easy, the villain has a pair in his hand!
the edge is static!
it's just controlling the pot r everything is right!

 

[Station_Master]

It's a very interesting hand, by the time you get to the river what does your range look like? 7x, Tx, JJ, QQ, 98s and busted draws. So I think it's fine to fold or bluff with Tx, notice that with this strategy JJ is way too thin by villain as we only call when he is beat ( or raise our 98)

 

[AKQ]

Hey forum,

I'd like some feedback on this hand which I played.

I qualified for the Main Event on BOL again and this time I didn't multi table as much, just the Weekly Freeroll on CardsChat.

I pulled Villians Stats from my HUD which is based on 41 hands but I think there were much fewer hands when I played this hand and the stats didn't seem that 'loose' when I played this hand.

Somehow my Hand2Note TXT-output does not work with the Hand Converter, so I am sharing as a picture:

I won't share my thinking and results at this moment but will do when some peeps have jumped in here.

Let me know if you agree on my game or if I should have done something differently.

Thanks in advance.

you played it like a cash game
Not like it was the BOL Main Event

getting your equity and slowplaying against a range(though AK doesnt often double barrel the turn)

you had no idea where you were in the hand

and did the worst possible action 4 times in a row
Call


I entered that mtt before
Which I took 24th/1500 with a single Golden( entire bankroll ) bullet
if you would have min raised the flop
Youd have gotten information
the double barrel was info too for some villian archetype
plus you want to protect that flop with a raise any Jack or higher is gonna be hard to continue against on turn river

 

[worsdep]

Have to agree with some of the comments already made.

Personally I would have 4 bet preflop to get more information. Opponent might think you're attempting to steal blinds and might be pulling a re steal.

 

[AKQ]

sorry if i was bl8unt

 

[fundiver199]

Some respondents say, that we should raise at some point in the hand "for information". We could 4-bet preflop, but that would not be a raise "for information". It would be a bluff, since a 4-bet can get hands better than ATs to fold. And sure this is a play, we can make from time to time. But if we do it always, then we end up 4-betting far to often with a range, which is far to full of junk. Solvers would probably have ATs as mainly a call, perhaps even sometimes a fold, and then a 4-bet like 10% of the time.

And on the flop check-raising would be an extremely bad play, since it would force Villain to fold out the bottom of his range and only continue with hands, that have us crushed or have huge equity from some kind of big draw. So as I said already, the only decision in this hand, which I find kind of questionable, is to call that big river bet. Here I think, Hero can save some chips, since as everyone seem to agree, the opponent is just not bluffing often enough with this line to try to bluffcatch the river.