$10 SnG, First Hand, Pocket QQs

hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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pokerstars Game #8855760559: Tournament #45042299, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/03/11 - 19:19:07 (ET)
Table '45042299 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Little Niki (1500 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: bigd8dei (1480 in chips)
Seat 3: BR_SKYDIVER (1540 in chips)
Seat 4: mikeeljud (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: mo*@osna (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: WorkTheGame (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: leopic (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: mymylatulipe (1480 in chips)
Seat 9: hott_estelle (1500 in chips)
BR_SKYDIVER: posts small blind 10
mikeeljud: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hott_estelle [Qc Qh]
mo*@osna: folds
WorkTheGame: folds
leopic: folds
mymylatulipe: folds
hott_estelle: raises 60 to 80
Little Niki: folds
bigd8dei: folds
BR_SKYDIVER: calls 70
mikeeljud: folds
*** FLOP *** [2s 6h 9c]
BR_SKYDIVER: checks
hott_estelle: bets 120
BR_SKYDIVER: calls 120
*** TURN *** [2s 6h 9c] [5h]
BR_SKYDIVER: bets 240
hott_estelle: ??



Actually 2nd hand (I know title says 1st but its the 2nd) absolutely zero reads, what do you do?
 
G

Green And Gray

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Hm...it's doubtful that he has 34s or 78s because he wouldn't have called that bet. It's always possible he has random suited big cards. A small pocket pair isn't likely, but a set of nines could be. I doubt that he has two pair because of the way he opened the hand. Of course, he could be on a stone bluff. It seems that the most likely possibility is random big cards suited. I would call in that situation.
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

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Does calling really help here? You're calling off around 20% of your stack and gaining zero information about your relative strength in the hand. He'll more than likely bet out the river too and you'll be faced with another tough decision.

I prefer either a fold or a raise.
 
dj11

dj11

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Nail the little twit to the wall. All in.....
or fold.....


That out of my system, you know that if you call, he will press. If you fold, you probably fold best hand. Hate to say it, but sharkscope would be handy about then.

So I'm with Schatsdog here..... Fold or reraise.
 
D

Dingodaddy23

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if you call, you still still have around 1k in chips. you can hope the river goes check/check (which it does often) or you can still fold to a substantial river bet. raising does nothing as better hands call/push and worse hands fold
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Does calling really help here? You're calling off around 20% of your stack and gaining zero information about your relative strength in the hand. He'll more than likely bet out the river too and you'll be faced with another tough decision.

I prefer either a fold or a raise.

controlling the size of the pot is far more important than 'gaining information' here. a reasonable raise means we will have commited over half our stack to the pot - are we going to fold our overpair here later in the hand having invested so much? folding to the turn lead is too weak-tight as we have no real reason to believe we're beat yet.

so we call and call a small to moderate river bet or check behind.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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I thought JJ, 1010, or the obvious trip cards, I thought about 78 suited, but gave him the benefit of the doubt. I called, for the exact reason posted above by Chris. He checked the river. I checked. And here's what happened:

PokerStars Game #8855760559: Tournament #45042299, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/03/11 - 19:19:07 (ET)
Table '45042299 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Little Niki (1500 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: bigd8dei (1480 in chips)
Seat 3: BR_SKYDIVER (1540 in chips)
Seat 4: mikeeljud (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: mo*@osna (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: WorkTheGame (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: leopic (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: mymylatulipe (1480 in chips)
Seat 9: hott_estelle (1500 in chips)
BR_SKYDIVER: posts small blind 10
mikeeljud: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hott_estelle [Qc Qh]
mo*@osna: folds
WorkTheGame: folds
leopic: folds
mymylatulipe: folds
hott_estelle: raises 60 to 80
Little Niki: folds
bigd8dei: folds
BR_SKYDIVER: calls 70
mikeeljud: folds
*** FLOP *** [2s 6h 9c]
BR_SKYDIVER: checks
hott_estelle: bets 120
BR_SKYDIVER: calls 120
*** TURN *** [2s 6h 9c] [5h]
BR_SKYDIVER: bets 240
hott_estelle: calls 240
*** RIVER *** [2s 6h 9c 5h] [Ac]
BR_SKYDIVER: checks
hott_estelle: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BR_SKYDIVER: shows [7c 8c] (a straight, Five to Nine)
hott_estelle: shows [Qc Qh] (a pair of Queens)
hott_estelle said, "sick"
BR_SKYDIVER collected 900 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 900 | Rake 0
Board [2s 6h 9c 5h Ac]
Seat 1: Little Niki folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: bigd8dei (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: BR_SKYDIVER (small blind) showed [7c 8c] and won (900) with a straight, Five to Nine
Seat 4: mikeeljud (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: mo*@osna folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: WorkTheGame folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: leopic folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: mymylatulipe folded before Flop (didn't bet)




Don't think I could have done it any other way.
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

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Why would he check down the nuts?

Anyway, what would you have done if he bet out 1/2 pot instead of checking? I guess I'm just gauging the true value of the call on the turn.

I see the value in controlling the pot size but at what point are you then happy to release the hand with confidence from then on and why.
 
H

Heraclitus

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two standard pot-sized bets... I see no fault here, for all you knew he had Ace 9 and you didn't overplay the QQ like many would.

Overall it was about as painless as a loss with face-pair could have been
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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lol @ villain's river check
 
Schatzdog

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lol @ villain's river check

This is what I meant in my post. Why wouldn't you get some value, even a tiny bet that might get a call or induce a raise/bluff.

Anyhow, I don't mean to harp on, I get the idea in keeping the pot small but is the sacrifice of information really worth it?
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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This is what I meant in my post. Why wouldn't you get some value, even a tiny bet that might get a call or induce a raise/bluff.

Anyhow, I don't mean to harp on, I get the idea in keeping the pot small but is the sacrifice of information really worth it?


I understand your thought about information, and how important it is, but this is the 2nd hand of the SnG, I can easily still come back if I lose about 500 chips or so, and gaining about another 300 or 400 chips by raising isn't isn't worth the risk to being reraised and having to lay down QQ without like you say, any information gained on what type of hand he has, how he plays, ect.

After this hand, I know he's loose preflop, calling with suited connectors to a 4xBB raise, thus I know he's not going to be too strong most of the time when we play.

I ended up busting him in the SnG, so I gained more information through my play that I would have having reraised him on the turn on that hand, and getting reraised allin, and having to fold without gaining any information on the type of player he is.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Anyhow, I don't mean to harp on, I get the idea in keeping the pot small but is the sacrifice of information really worth it?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you proposing to raise the turn and then fold if he moves all-in? That information comes with a pretty hefty price tag on it, in that case. Or we raise and he folds, in which case the only information we get is already past its due date.

The only time I agree with raising for information is if we can

a) get it cheap, and
b) trust it to be very accurate.

The second hand of a $10 SnG, on the turn, where just calling commits 20% of our stack, neither A nor B are satisfied, so raising for information does not make sense to me. I think Estelle played it expertly.

Edit: And Estelle herself posted while I was off to the store to get milk. And now I realize that she not only played it expertly, she did it for the right reasons!
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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Thanks FP, you explained it pretty nicely yourself.
 
Schatzdog

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I agree, Estelle played it very well.

Two things then:

When in doubt about the relative strength of your hand controlling the pot size is crucial and calling down achieves this. Point taken.

What would you have been comfortable calling on the end if he'd lead out? 1/4 pot? 1/2 pot? If any, why?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Half pot sounds about right. It's a semi-bluff or other weirdly played often enough (one in three) to call then, I feel. I'm trying to tell myself that I wouldn't go broke if a third queen came off on the river, but I'm honestly not sure.
 
Schatzdog

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I still think that if you raise the turn and opponent calls/raises you are now sure you're beaten and can release.

If you call the turn and a 1/2 pot bet on the river surely that has the same cost (or even higher) as a turn raise, but the raise gives you a better understanding of where you are.

Anyway, 2nd hand in I agree, no need to get trigger happy yet and information gleaned on opponents playing style/skill is valuable for the remainder of the game. As the hand played out Estelle got it spot on, but against a better opponent this would have been trickier and/or more expensive.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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If you call the turn and a 1/2 pot bet on the river surely that has the same cost (or even higher) as a turn raise, but the raise gives you a better understanding of where you are.
Calling a bet on the river gets us to showdown. That tells me exactly where I am.

Raising on the turn at exactly the same costs sets us up to make the devastating mistake of folding the best hand. Or, even though it's not quite as bad, we may shut down a bluff that would have bet the river, missing value.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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Schatzdog, I understand your argument, about certain information, such as raising to gain information. This is a good move, at certain times, but raising to gain information is a very risky manuver. For one, the information you gain by raising might not be worth the chips you raise (and lose potentially) and the information you gain might be false.

For example, lets say I reraise in this situation on the turn to gain information on his hand, and get reraised. I don't get a clear cut fact on his hand, he could either have a monster like he did and have me beat, or he could be bluffing. And also, then I would have to face the dilemma of having to either push or fold, when I might be folding a winning hand.

On the other hand, if I just call the turn like I did, and control the size of the pot, and am prepared to call a small bet on the river, or even check as he checked to me, then I can gain crucial real and legitimate information that I know is true and very helpful towards me in the future. I know what types of hands he plays, what he is willing to chase, what types of bets he makes when he has a monster hand, ect, I get an immense amount of more information, than I would have not gotten had I reraised the turn and been forced to fold.

Like I said before, I understand your argument, but raising for information is a situational play, and it does not fit this situation. The best form of information is getting to see your opponents cards, whether it be by showdown or if they're just nice (possibly stupid, if they're just attempting to rub it in or put someone on tilt) enough to show.
 
Schatzdog

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Cool. Thanks for that, I am now pretty clear with why you'd play it this way in this situation.
 
Bombjack

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Raising for information is almost always a bad idea. I'm trying to think of an example when it's a good idea... can anyone help me out? :confused:
 
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