$10 NLHE: Raise to my 10-10

Debi

Debi

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$10 NL HE: Raise to my 10-10

I really don't know what he is raising with here...wasn't sure if I should call or re-raise.


pokerstars Game #26000629009: Tournament #147359084, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2009/03/15 18:02:52 ET
Table '147359084 81' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jefdave (7791 in chips)
Seat 2: donbarney (10227 in chips)
Seat 3: dexter77771 (8960 in chips)
Seat 4: CHIcLEADER (12925 in chips)
Seat 5: dakota-xx (28585 in chips)
Seat 6: Flotastic (4938 in chips)
Seat 7: Vanishingpot (4523 in chips)
Seat 8: megaProfiK (2510 in chips)
Seat 9: pusteblume (7847 in chips)
jefdave: posts the ante 25
donbarney: posts the ante 25
dexter77771: posts the ante 25
CHIcLEADER: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
Flotastic: posts the ante 25
Vanishingpot: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts the ante 25
pusteblume: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts small blind 150
pusteblume: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Th Tc]
jefdave: folds
donbarney: raises 600 to 900
dexter77771: folds
CHIcLEADER: folds
dakota-xx: ???
 
Stick66

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Player reads/stats would help. But as the huuuge chip leader like you are here, I'd at least call to setmine this. I'd only re-raise if he was nitty.
 
Debi

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I don't have HUD for tournaments so no stats available and no strong read on him from the table. He is not nitty though.
 
silverslugger33

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It depends what the payout for the tournament is. Is it more important to you that you win or get into the money? If you think it's very important that you just get into the money, I'd call and hope for a safe flop (either a set or 3 unders). If you are really gunning for the win (meaning there's a big spike in payout for the 1st place finisher), I'd raise to about 3K, knowing that if they go back over the top all in, you have to call.
 
Debi

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I think I was in 3rd place at this point of the tournament and wasn't concerned about not making it to the money. I don't really like to pin point my goal so specifically - of course I would love to win. I guess if I have to state a specific goal it would be to get to the final table.
 
shinedown.45

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I really don't know what he is raising with here...wasn't sure if I should call or re-raise.


PokerStars Game #26000629009: Tournament #147359084, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2009/03/15 18:02:52 ET
Table '147359084 81' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jefdave (7791 in chips)
Seat 2: donbarney (10227 in chips)
Seat 3: dexter77771 (8960 in chips)
Seat 4: CHIcLEADER (12925 in chips)
Seat 5: dakota-xx (28585 in chips)
Seat 6: Flotastic (4938 in chips)
Seat 7: Vanishingpot (4523 in chips)
Seat 8: megaProfiK (2510 in chips)
Seat 9: pusteblume (7847 in chips)
jefdave: posts the ante 25
donbarney: posts the ante 25
dexter77771: posts the ante 25
CHIcLEADER: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
Flotastic: posts the ante 25
Vanishingpot: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts the ante 25
pusteblume: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts small blind 150
pusteblume: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Th Tc]
jefdave: folds
donbarney: raises 600 to 900
dexter77771: folds
CHIcLEADER: folds
dakota-xx: ???
With only a 3xBB raise I would put villian on something like AK/AQ/AJ/JJ but would add AA/KK/QQ if he had a habit of making similar opening bets from EP with premium cards.
As it stands though, I would raise to chase any drawing hands out, maybe up to 3k.

As I always do with HA lately, I do not read past OP when making comments, so If I repeat anything someone else has said then this is the reason.
 
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Melkor

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With stacks as they are, both big and both able for some manouvering post-flop, I would really see little reason to throw it in preflop as if it gets in we are at best a coinflip and 10000 chips is a lot of our stack. There is also a good number of players behind us who can still turn up with something and we would have to call any shove from them if we reraise. A call looks good, especially with position on the villain.

Providing villain is not a bit of a nutter their range could be 99+, KQs and KQo, ATs+. On a three unders board I think we have to shove over the villains c-bet if it comes. On a J-high board I get it in as well. If it has a K or Q or both on it and we are checked too I think we should take the lead and bet, unless villain hasn't checked a flop before. If there is an A high flop I would fold to a bet and check behind if checked to.

It is an awkward spot and I don't have loads of MTT experience but just with stack sizes I would say getting it in pre is a bit too aggro.
 
StormRaven

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If I'm reading this correctly, he was raising in early pos with you to act behind him giving you pos on him.

My gut instinct is to say he didn't want a caller. He wanted to steal the blinds. With your chip stack he knows you can afford to call 2.5x - 3x bb with a wide range of hands and see a flop so he has to consider your stack size when making his bet. He doesn't want you to see a flop. (Unless you were playing loose and he figures you'd call or reraise).

If you were playing solid, I'd say call the bet, see a flop. Worse that will happen is flop doesn't improve/compliment your hand and you have to fold to his cbet.

At this stage of the tourney I see no reason to risk a reraise against his stack - if he was short stacked I'd reraise all in and take my chances.

My guess is this type of raise, with his chip stack, and especially from early pos, he had a nice hand. Not AA or KK but AK/AQ su or QQ/ JJ.

If he had made this type of raise in late pos I would have put him on a mediocore hand or small to middle pair.
 
cardplayer52

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he's got a tricky stack. any good sized 3bet here commits him. so just shoving here would be ok if you were in the blinds or on the button. but by being in middle position this is a really tough spot. if you flat here you commits to the pot with any of those short stacks behind you. i'm really on the fence here without any read on him or the table. i may try a 3bet of just under 2.5 of 2100 or so. it still enough hopefully to get to play in position and doesn't risk a huge amount of chips. but not really sure whats best here. i guess if you don't expect to get raised then flatting is ok. but it just makes a squeese more likely. great hand to post. lots to it.
 
cardplayer52

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you know i thought more on this hand. like i said it was good one to post lots to it. well i think you could fold here. for a few reasons 1. you don't know his range so a 99+ AQ+ is a good one to assign him till you know other wise. and your TT is only 40% vs that range. 2. there are short stacks behind you. i always tighten up there. if you limp + a short stack shoves i think you got to call. 3. your stacks arent deep enough to give you enough implied odds to setmine. 4. TT don't do well after the flop. 5. your not sure you will have position. with all these considered you could fold here. i think this is a hand that it may be a small mistake to fold and maybe a big one to play.
 
J

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Since the raise comes from the second position I would only call here. Folding is not worth with your stack
 
DaFrench1

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A shove isn't horrible here, and more importantly it looks horrible to him. Most players aren't calling that with less than AA-JJ, and I wouldn't be too bothered about the players left to act behind due to their stacks. You could raise to 3k to accomplish the same effect, but you should decide before you play what you are going to do if he/someone else comes over the top. If you are happy to put in 3k and would fold to a shove then do that, if you would call a shove over the top of your 3k then you might as well put it in now. I don't like the call here as you could let others into the hand further reducing your chances of winning, TT is marginal as it is vs1. vs 2 or 3 its horrible.
 
Last edited:
pantin007

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A shove isn't horrible here, and more importantly it looks horrible to him. Most players aren't calling that with less than AA-JJ, and I wouldn't be too bothered about the players left to act behind due to their stacks. You could raise to 3k to accomplish the same effect, but you should decide before you play what you are going to do if he/someone else comes over the top. If you are happy to put in 3k and would fold to a shove then do that, if you would call a shove over the top of your 3k then you might as well put it in now. I don't like the call here as you could let others into the hand further reducing your chances of winning, TT is marginal as it is vs1. vs 2 or 3 its horrible.
blinds are 150-300, effective stacks are 10K, it would be pretty terrible to shove here. as u said, we are never getting called by hands we beat and AA to JJ are a big part of his range (raising from EP). it just cant be profitable

i think i call here and see a flop, but i dont mind raising either
lean towards calling tho
 
DaFrench1

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Calling here sucks. Any over cards on the flop and we pretty much have to fold to a c-bet. Shove might be extreme (though I wouldn't be averse to it) but at least we have to re-raise this. That way we are more likely to get a check into us on the flop and we can decide whether to take it down there or get more cards, also you know that if an over comes on the flop and he bets into us that he is more likely to have what he is representing. Calling is too weak here.

Out of interest. How would you play JJ in the same spot?
 
pantin007

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Calling here sucks. Any over cards on the flop and we pretty much have to fold to a c-bet. Shove might be extreme (though I wouldn't be averse to it) but at least we have to re-raise this. That way we are more likely to get a check into us on the flop and we can decide whether to take it down there or get more cards, also you know that if an over comes on the flop and he bets into us that he is more likely to have what he is representing. Calling is too weak here.

Out of interest. How would you play JJ in the same spot?
u dont have to raise, u dont have to get ur chips in preflop, playing hands post flop is more important. the reason i opt to call here is because by 3 betting, villain probably folds out a lot of hands we beat and if he comes over the top well we are at best a coinflip and quite often dominated. we dont need to risk a lot of chips preflop
 
Debi

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Well since this was bumped I guess we will continue to look at it:

PokerStars Game #26000629009: Tournament #147359084, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2009/03/15 18:02:52 ET
Table '147359084 81' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jefdave (7791 in chips)
Seat 2: donbarney (10227 in chips)
Seat 3: dexter77771 (8960 in chips)
Seat 4: CHIcLEADER (12925 in chips)
Seat 5: dakota-xx (28585 in chips)
Seat 6: Flotastic (4938 in chips)
Seat 7: Vanishingpot (4523 in chips)
Seat 8: megaProfiK (2510 in chips)
Seat 9: pusteblume (7847 in chips)
jefdave: posts the ante 25
donbarney: posts the ante 25
dexter77771: posts the ante 25
CHIcLEADER: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
Flotastic: posts the ante 25
Vanishingpot: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts the ante 25
pusteblume: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts small blind 150
pusteblume: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Th Tc]
jefdave: folds
donbarney: raises 600 to 900
dexter77771: folds
CHIcLEADER: folds
dakota-xx: calls 900
Flotastic: folds
Vanishingpot: folds
megaProfiK: folds
pusteblume: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc Qh 9d]
pusteblume is sitting out
donbarney: bets 900
dakota-xx: ????
 
zachvac

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Maybe I'm a nit but I probably fold preflop. He's got a bit over 30 BBs so he can be pretty creative on how he wants to get the money in if he has a big hand while we're lost the entire time no matter what. People talk about getting a safe flop, but if his range is AJ+/JJ+ is he really pushing AJ+ on a safe flop? And even if he has worse pocket pairs the majority of pocket pairs that push on a "safe flop" have us beat. Obviously if we can get him to spew and get money in with AK on an under flop then that can be profitable but I somehow doubt he will do that. If he's loose I like a 3-bet with the intention of getting it in. In this spot against a tight or random opponent, the only thing we have going for us is position, but even that isn't huge because we're not that deep. He can have AA and check flop. He can bet flop check turn, he can just take so many lines and end up getting the money in while we're sitting here completely lost unless we hit a set. So even if we may be slightly ahead of his range, our hand is just going to be so tough to play and we are not even close to getting odds to set mine so I would probably just fold preflop here.
 
cardplayer52

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i was giving them the range of 99+ AQs because we had no read. and athough this normally is a good flop for TT here i think that range got you crushed. i may have to check call weak bets on the turn or river but anything too big i got to fold. here they bet out so i think i got to fold here. i may peel one off though see if the ten pops.
 
Irexes

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Only read debi's posts so far so apologies.

I play this one of two ways.

With this deep a stack I'm not folding (though dropping TT preflop to a raise is definately something that's correct a lot of the time).

I call preflop maybe 60% and raise maybe 40% here.

If I call It's in order to either spike a set, or bet when he checks the flop and take it there.

If I raise it's to about 2700-3000 and I fold to a 4 bet. If called, again a set good on the flop, but also I am looking to bet regardless if the board allows or he shows weakness (hopefully both).

As played I call flop about 75% (and give up if faced with a decent turn bet, though probably bet if checked to me) and raise to 3-4k about 25%.

(this is with no reads, reads would change everything)
 
D

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Great Hand and great analysis by all!

So many lines you can take preflop, especially because of the depth of stacks.

Effective M is about 15 (you have 40+M).

Folding: Too weak this deep.

Calling : certainly an option, but you are giving up control and will have no idea how to play when he cbets the flop. You could plan on floating almost all non ace flops but then the pot is getting big and a bit uncomfortable for a hand like 10-10.

Raising: So you could make a non committing 3-bet as a lot of people have suggested. This would give you control of the hand post flop coupled with position and a decent hand makes post flop a little easier to play. And of course the added benefit of forcing a fold to hands like Qx, Kx, AJ, and winning a decent pot uncontested.

I like making a little reraise Preflop.

On the flop, this is where it gets real player dependent. Would he lead with a queen here? With no read, the smallish bet seems scared. If you are confident he doesn't have a Q, you could raise the flop, or wait till the turn to take it away, which may look like a slowplay. He is no where near committed. But again it's very player dependent. Is he going to overplay an overpair?

Either way, I would consider making a substantial raise on the flop or turn and shutting it down if called.

Anyways, fun hand.

DonkeyKong

http://www.drcheckraise.com
 
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Debi

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Next stage:

PokerStars Game #26000629009: Tournament #147359084, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2009/03/15 18:02:52 ET
Table '147359084 81' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jefdave (7791 in chips)
Seat 2: donbarney (10227 in chips)
Seat 3: dexter77771 (8960 in chips)
Seat 4: CHIcLEADER (12925 in chips)
Seat 5: dakota-xx (28585 in chips)
Seat 6: Flotastic (4938 in chips)
Seat 7: Vanishingpot (4523 in chips)
Seat 8: megaProfiK (2510 in chips)
Seat 9: pusteblume (7847 in chips)
jefdave: posts the ante 25
donbarney: posts the ante 25
dexter77771: posts the ante 25
CHIcLEADER: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
Flotastic: posts the ante 25
Vanishingpot: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts the ante 25
pusteblume: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts small blind 150
pusteblume: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Th Tc]
jefdave: folds
donbarney: raises 600 to 900
dexter77771: folds
CHIcLEADER: folds
dakota-xx: calls 900
Flotastic: folds
Vanishingpot: folds
megaProfiK: folds
pusteblume: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc Qh 9d]
pusteblume is sitting out
donbarney: bets 900
dakota-xx: raises 1800 to 2700
donbarney: raises 6602 to 9302 and is all-in
dakota-xx: ???
 
Irexes

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I fold. His range kills you at this point :)
 
pantin007

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Next stage:

PokerStars Game #26000629009: Tournament #147359084, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2009/03/15 18:02:52 ET
Table '147359084 81' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jefdave (7791 in chips)
Seat 2: donbarney (10227 in chips)
Seat 3: dexter77771 (8960 in chips)
Seat 4: CHIcLEADER (12925 in chips)
Seat 5: dakota-xx (28585 in chips)
Seat 6: Flotastic (4938 in chips)
Seat 7: Vanishingpot (4523 in chips)
Seat 8: megaProfiK (2510 in chips)
Seat 9: pusteblume (7847 in chips)
jefdave: posts the ante 25
donbarney: posts the ante 25
dexter77771: posts the ante 25
CHIcLEADER: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
Flotastic: posts the ante 25
Vanishingpot: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts the ante 25
pusteblume: posts the ante 25
megaProfiK: posts small blind 150
pusteblume: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Th Tc]
jefdave: folds
donbarney: raises 600 to 900
dexter77771: folds
CHIcLEADER: folds
dakota-xx: calls 900
Flotastic: folds
Vanishingpot: folds
megaProfiK: folds
pusteblume: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc Qh 9d]
pusteblume is sitting out
donbarney: bets 900
dakota-xx: raises 1800 to 2700
donbarney: raises 6602 to 9302 and is all-in
dakota-xx: ???
i dont understand the point of raising, ur never getting action from hands that you beat unless he spews with something like AK or 88

his 3 bet is way too strong, eazy fold
 
N

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folding here is bad so we're left with reraising or flatcalling...if u reraise u have 2 disadvantages: re-reraise possibility from the remaining opponents/getting beat by the initial raiser

flat calling has 2 advantages..if A/K comes on flop and he bets u can fold, if the flop comes low u can get it in
 
Stu_Ungar

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OK Yesterday I was advocating a preflop 3-bet as a semi-bluff.

Meaning that he may fold, but if he calls, you may still hit a set and get to play for stacks and if you don't, his c-bet should now be around 2-3k leaving you with an easy post flop fold.

Now I have put a little more thought into it, I think that its an easy preflop fold.

Here is why.

Raising is bad because there is virtually no fold equity in our raise. The only hand that beats us that might elect to fold is JJ and thats iffy... and maybe AJ. I think that AA-QQ + AK,AQ will stay in so raising would only work if he has a huge preflop range.. about 8%

8% is roughly 66+ ATs+ AQ+

If you remember the gap theory then it states that you need a better hand to call with than to open the pot yourself. Thus you need a hand in the middle of his range. So with an 8% early range TT sits in the middle. So it then justifies a call.

So for him to have an 8% early range, his total PFR must be about 20-30% .. HUGE

With no HUD the only thing to look at is stack size.. his stack is large enough compared to the blinds that he is not forced to play at this point so without some kind of read you cannot assume that his early range is big enough for either a raise of a call to have any kind of long term success.

So its a fold.

Now that uses 'cash game logic' so Tournament players may be able to add things that I simply haven't thought of.
 
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