10-10 vs AQ - should I have bet more post flop?

K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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Stacks:
* UTG+1 with 1480
* MP1 with 1010
* MP2 with 2800
* CO with 1590
* BTN with 1620
* SB with 1780
* BB with 1740
* UTG with 1480

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds: 10/20
Site: pokerstars
* * Dealt to MP1:T♦ T♠
* * Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
* * 2 players fold.
* * Hero raises 100 to 120
* * 2 players fold.
* * BTN calls [120]
* * 2 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 6
* * Potsize: 270
Flop:
* * 2♣ 8♠ 7♠
* * Hero bets [300]
* * 2 players fold.
* * BTN calls [300]
* * Potsize: 870
Turn:
* * A♣
* * Hero bets [590] [ all-in ]
* * BTN calls [590]
* * Potsize: 2050
River:
* * 9♠
Results:
* * Hero shows a pair of Tens:
* * 10♦ 10♠
* * BTN shows a pair of Aces:
* * A♥ Q♦
* * BTN collected 2050 from pot

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum
 
CrackaNACtion

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Ahh well hard to tell. this guy couldve been a fish and called just cause he had 2 overs. i wouldve went all in after flop incase he did. but sorry
 
Steveg1976

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The scare card hit and then you went all in, why? Did you have some kind of read that made this make sense. Of course he is going to call with an Ace and fold if he didn't have it. Pre Flop to me is fine you were out of position so a large raise makes sense. After the flop all you have is a pair, bet less and keep the pot smaller, all you really have is medium pair any paint is a scare card for you. Great advice I have taken to heart from Phil Gordon's green book is small hand small pot, big hand big pot. the last thing you want to do it stack off with just a pair.
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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I normally don't rail, but I decided to ask villan why he would call (calmy) and he said it was because my bet was a "weakament" and told him I had nothing... pot size bet = weak. I hope I can find him again.
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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The scare card hit and then you went all in, why? Did you have some kind of read that made this make sense. Of course he is going to call with an Ace and fold if he didn't have it. Pre Flop to me is fine you were out of position so a large raise makes sense. After the flop all you have is a pair, bet less and keep the pot smaller, all you really have is medium pair any paint is a scare card for you. Great advice I have taken to heart from Phil Gordon's green book is small hand small pot, big hand big pot. the last thing you want to do it stack off with just a pair.

With his hand post flop, it SHOULD HAVE won me the pot... shouldn't it? Maybe I undervalue AQ when I completely miss the flop.
 
c9h13no3

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He had a 24% draw to beat you by the river, 12% by the turn. You offered him 1.9:1 pot odds and he had a 1:7.3 draw. He made a big fat mistake on the flop, and you made a bigger, fatter mistake on the turn.

Here's what I consider mistakes in the hand:

1) You preflop raise is very large. You raised six times the big blind in an unopened pot! A 70 chip raise would have been more than sufficient. Raising this much only commits you more to the hand.

2) You also overbet the flop. 190-220 chips would have been plenty. No one is calling preflop with suited connectors, so charging draws is less important.

3) With all that over-betting & raising too much, you're now pretty much committed on the turn when the overcard hits. You shove (odd play), he's got it, and you're toast.

The hand should've played out like this:

* * Dealt to MP1:T♦ T♠
* * Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
* * 2 players fold.
* * Hero raises 50 to 70
* * 2 players fold.
* * BTN calls [70]
* * 2 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 6
* * Potsize: 170
Flop:
* * 2♣ 8♠ 7♠
* * Hero bets [120]
* * 2 players fold.
* * BTN calls [120]
* * Potsize: 410
Turn:
* * A♣
* * Hero has 820 chips left, and can bet & still fold if he likes.

In tournaments, when you're playing hands like this, you want to be sure not to bloat the pot, because it can leave you in situations where you just can't maneuver after the flop. You need the ability to fold when bad cards come.

Or, another line would be to raise to about 250 chips preflop. If you're called, you can easily shove all your chips in on this flop. However, I don't think you'll be called very often betting such a huge amount.

Either way, you want to have a plan for the hand, as soon as you're dealt TT. Realize that your actions preflop, will limit or enhance your ability to bet, raise, and fold later in the hand.
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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1) You preflop raise is very large. You raised six times the big blind in an unopened pot! A 70 chip raise would have been more than sufficient. Raising this much only commits you more to the hand.

At low limits I get too many limpers if I don't go 5x or more. 5x is usually my standard PF raise when I raise.

2) You also overbet the flop. 190-220 chips would have been plenty.

Apparently not, because he called with nadda. Which people with nothing is what I was trying to push out. Again, at lower levels people will see the next card if it's cheap enough.

No one is calling preflop with suited connectors, so charging draws is less important.

How long have you been playing online? People call all day and somtimes twice on tuesday with SC, many times with just S or C.

3) With all that over-betting & raising too much, you're now pretty much committed on the turn when the overcard hits. You shove (odd play), he's got it, and you're toast.
I was tilted when I saw the A and told myself he probably called missing the flop and now he caught the A... and he did.
The hand should've played out like this:

* * Dealt to MP1:T♦ T♠
* * Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
* * 2 players fold.
* * Hero raises 50 to 70 <--- getting more limpers at lower level, maybe 2 more would've called reducing my 10's chances
* * 2 players fold.
* * BTN calls [70]
* * 2 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 6
* * Potsize: 170
Flop:
* * 2♣ 8♠ 7♠
* * Hero bets [120] <-- this is too cheap, I've been told (HERE) that I would need AT LEAST a pot sized bet at this point to push out any rag hands. At these levels someone w/ AX may still call just to see the next card... oh wait... that happened anyway.
* * 2 players fold.
* * BTN calls [120]
* * Potsize: 410
Turn:
* * A♣ <-- should never have seen this - after my day, I admit it was a stupid call on my part.
* * Hero has 820 chips left, and can bet & still fold if he likes.

In tournaments, when you're playing hands like this, you want to be sure not to bloat the pot...

And yet another member (here) is telling me I'm short stacked too often.

Or, another line would be to raise to about 250 chips preflop. If you're called..

He would've called

you can easily shove all your chips in on this flop.

He may still have called my all-in... never know on that one though.

Either way, you want to have a plan for the hand, as soon as you're dealt TT.

I did, 5xBB to push the limpers... and then the post flop should've dropped villan as well.
 
Steveg1976

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With his hand post flop, it SHOULD HAVE won me the pot... shouldn't it? Maybe I undervalue AQ when I completely miss the flop.

What I meant was that people love to play aces. An Ace comes, a very likely holding for him and then you shove. He made a mistake calling your big raise on the flop, yes, but your mistake was the shove on the turn. As for you big preflop raise I understand why you did it but it does create a large pot especially with you large flop bet. If this was my hand I would have preflop raised the same about, only bet half the pot on the flop creating a smaller pot and still making it a mistake to draw then checked the turn when the A hit. I think it is a bigger mistake here to Bet when you are beat than to fold a possible winner, and with smaller bets you can get away from your hand with a reasonable stack early in the tournament.
 
c9h13no3

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Here's the thing. Stop focusing on how bad your opponent's play is, and fix your own! And stop being results oriented. If those limpers will call with weaker hands, that's fine and dandy.

You have to play to exploit the players you're against. *Don't* change your play trying to force your opponents to act like something they're not. Do change your play to adapt to their calling station tendencies.

Your opponent's call would've been a mistake had the flop bet been 50% or 110% of the pot size. And you want him to make that mistake over and over again, because the A won't always be there on the turn. He's practically donating to you 8 out of 10 times! So if your opponent is going to call & see all streets, then charge him to see all streets, and don't pay him the minimum when he hits his draw.
 
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K_Kahne_Fan

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What I meant was that people love to play aces. An Ace comes, a very likely holding for him and then you shove.

After I made the post-flop bet, why would an A have been a likely holding? If someone bet a pot sized bet at me with that flop and I was holding AK/AQ/AJ/A10, I (and I think most) would have folded. The only A's I was affraid of was AA, which I wouldn't even be posting this if he had AA as it would've been a good call on his part. A2/A8/A7, most of which (should) fold with 6xBB PF, but not always. What did I really think I would see... AA/QQ/KK/JJ.


He made a mistake calling your big raise on the flop, yes, but your mistake was the shove on the turn.

Which I agreed with earlier.

As for you big preflop raise I understand why you did it but it does create a large pot especially with you large flop bet.

I was holding a decent hand. The better the hand, hopefully, the better the pot. At the level of the blinds and the level of the SNG, I don't think 6xBB was too high for a higher PP. If someone was holding JJ+, it's likely they would've re-raised my 6x and I would've had a better value of their hand.


If this was my hand I would have preflop raised the same about, only bet half the pot on the flop creating a smaller pot and still making it a mistake to draw.

Most people at these level NEVER think it's a mistake to draw, so the pot sized bet hopefully helps them with that decision.


...then checked the turn when the A hit.

This was my version of the Matusow implosion (which I don't do very often)

I think it is a bigger mistake here to Bet when you are beat than to fold a possible winner, and with smaller bets you can get away from your hand with a reasonable stack early in the tournament.

Agreed: again: see above re: implosion




Here's the thing. Stop focusing on how bad your opponent's play is, and fix your own!
I bring my hands here so I can find out if it WAS my mistake, OR my opponent's.


And stop being results oriented. If those limpers will call with weaker hands, that's fine and dandy.

Really? You want limpers with weaker hands to have a chance to catch up? Guess I should only give 1x raises from now on. I thought the point of a strong hand was to push limpers out so that you have a better shot post flop.


You have to play to exploit the players you're against.

If he wouldn't have caught the A, I was doing just that.


*Don't* change your play trying to force your opponents to act like something they're not. Do change your play to adapt to their calling station tendencies.

Calling Station = suckouts if you're not careful, which is why my standard is 5xBB (never know just how strong my hand is, just that it's strong[maybe]) and if I hit (or feel no one hit) the flop, 1/3-pot sized bet to push out any draws and hopefully take it down there.


Thank you for your input(s) by the way. I do take everything and try to adjust my play. Please keep the feedback coming.
 
c9h13no3

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I thought the point of a strong hand was to push limpers out so that you have a better shot post flop.
Its also to get people to pay you while you're ahead. Hands players are likely to limp in with are unlikely to catch up with you on the flop. Therefore, if someone wants to come along for the ride with an inferior hand, its not all that bad. Sure, if you're up against 1 player, it makes c-betting easier, but I think that c-betting shouldn't be our main concern. In a tourney this loose, bluffing/c-betting just isn't profitable since players will call with Ace high.

If he wouldn't have caught the A, I was doing just that.
But you were doing other things (namely pot committing yourself) as well in the process. There were lines you could take that didn't have the nasty side effect of having all your chips in the middle by the turn.

Calling Station = suckouts if you're not careful.
You don't beat calling stations by raising more, they're still going to call. You beat calling stations by betting enough to make their call incorrect. And then when the calling station hits their draw, you pay them the minimum. And while your bet on the flop did cause his call to be incorrect, it also set you up to pay him the maximum when he hit his draw (because he was pot committed).

Sure, an ace was a bit of an odd holding, however, it should have at least slowed you down. Someone staying in the hand with AsJs, or just a villain floating you with AQ are possibilities, especially against these opponents. You need to really slow down.
 
Jillychemung

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One of the things that I am still working on is the rule 'Big Pots for Big Hands'. While TT is very attractive it just doesn't fall into the 'Big Hands' which IMHO are only AA/KK/AKs . So with these pocket pairs QQ-99 I really want to exercise some pot control and am happy in winning a medium sized pot 3 outta 5 times and then once every 10 times or so I'll hit the set and then look for a bigger pot. Most of my biggest losers in tournament play is due to going for the homerun and/or thinking I can move a player off a hand. Trying to keep patience at the forefront is very difficult when playing against opponents that overvalue weak hands but I know that in the long run I'll get the better of them if I can stop looking for dingers and keep accepting singles.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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I bring my hands here so I can find out if it WAS my mistake, OR my opponent's.
Why can't it be both? It's quite easy for two people to play a hand horribly - as happened here.

You committed yourself on the flop. You may as well have just shoved there and then rather than overbet the pot, as you were shoving the rest of your chips in no matter what came on the turn, correct?

One thing that is crucially important in any given poker hand is thinking ahead. You shouldn't be doing anything without thinking how it is likely to affect the rest of the hand. Okay, you raised 6BBs pre - we can argue all day over whether that's excessive. If we raise 3BBs and get two callers who are calling with ranges that are behind TT then we're still profiting as while we will win the pot on average less often (an obvious consequence of being up against an extra player), we will win more chips on average when we do win the pot.

Really c9hthingy is bang on with his analysis. You say in countering his proposed analysis of how the hand 'should have gone down' that you overbet the flop because you would need "at least a pot sized bet to push rag hands out". Why do you want to push rag hands out? The whole point of poker is to force your opponents into making mistakes. Sure, your opponent made a mistake here, but it wasn't a consequence of you outwitting him - you've admitted as much in not claiming you overbet, for example, because you had a "villain reads overbets as bluffs" read on him, but rather because you "wanted to push rag hands out"!

Take a step back. Ignore the fact that villain had AQ here. Put villain on a range of hands given his preflop and subsequent flop play. Given this range, can you honestly say you think you played the hand well from start to finish?

Steve and c9hthingy said pretty much everything else I wanted to, so I'll leave it at that.
 
Bones65

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i would of pushed on the flop.
of course if player is a <{{{><...ur still dead
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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Why can't it be both? It's quite easy for two people to play a hand horribly - as happened here.

Didn't say it couldn't. I was told I shouldn't focus on my opponents plays, but my own. However sometimes, if I bring a hand here, some might say "you played correctly and villain was wrong". That's what I ment by MY play and VILLAINS play. Didn't say it couldn't be both. (see below)

You committed yourself on the flop. You may as well have just shoved there and then rather than overbet the pot, as you were shoving the rest of your chips in no matter what came on the turn, correct?

As stated (several times) above, (normally) I would not shove after seeing the A. At the point I saw the A I was on tilt and have faulted myself for this (several times above).

One thing that is crucially important in any given poker hand is thinking ahead.

Again, strike my post-turn play, as I've said again (and again) I screwed up from there on. What makes you think PF I wasn't thinking ahead?

You shouldn't be doing anything without thinking how it is likely to affect the rest of the hand. Okay, you raised 6BBs pre - we can argue all day over whether that's excessive. If we raise 3BBs and get two callers who are calling with ranges that are behind TT

Behind TT which may include future flush/str8 draws which I'd rather push out PF personally.

then we're still profiting as while we will win the pot on average less often (an obvious consequence of being up against an extra player), we will win more chips on average when we do win the pot.

I'd rather try to win the pot more often, which is where the pot sized bet should've shut him down, unless he had a higher pair. Which I still would've made the wrong turn call (I know).

Really c9hthingy is bang on with his analysis. You say in countering his proposed analysis of how the hand 'should have gone down' that you overbet the flop because you would need "at least a pot sized bet to push rag hands out". Why do you want to push rag hands out?

Because the point of poker is to win. If I would have weak bet this whole hand and come on here saying "someone sucked out a str8/flush on the river, I would've been told I should've bet more PF and flop... how do I know? Because I've been told this.


The whole point of poker is to force your opponents into making mistakes. Sure, your opponent made a mistake here, but it wasn't a consequence of you outwitting him - you've admitted as much in not claiming you overbet,

I have never said I overbet PF or flop, only on the turn because (again) I was tiled. I feel I made a bet which should have pushed villain out. And this is where analyzing villain's play is important because if he had done the correct thing and folded on the flop, I would've pulled down the pot. Now, had he called and not hit the A on the turn I would've made more $$ from his mistakes. Instead, I saw the A and tilted.


for example, because you had a "villain reads overbets as bluffs" read on him, but rather because you "wanted to push rag hands out"!

Again, if I didn't push rags out and they sucked out by the river I would've been wrong there also (right?).

Take a step back. Ignore the fact that villain had AQ here. Put villain on a range of hands given his preflop and subsequent flop play. Given this range, can you honestly say you think you played the hand well from start to finish?

As said above, not from start to finish, turn+ I was a
Donkey-icon.gif
, but PF & flop, I thought I played it as y'all have taught which is not to let the small hands catch up.

Steve and c9hthingy said pretty much everything else I wanted to, so I'll leave it at that.

Again, thanks for your analysis, I do take everything y'all say to heart and try to improve. The analyses(sp?) above just contradict what I've been told before (here) which is that I tend to under bet and allow too many hands to see too much. Now I've raised my bets and I'm betting too high?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I thought I played it as y'all have taught which is not to let the small hands catch up...

...The analyses(sp?) above just contradict what I've been told before (here) which is that I tend to under bet and allow too many hands to see too much. Now I've raised my bets and I'm betting too high?
Yes. You're over-doing it. The key is to not let small hands catch up *with the correct pot odds*. If someone has a flush draw (roughly a 4:1 draw on the turn), and you give them 3:1 pot odds (50% of the pot bet), then they're making a mistake if they call. And you want them to call all day long, because its easy to limit how much you pay them once the draw hits.

Now in a tournament there is some argument for winning the hand now, since survival is the strategy, and not making chips. However, you're taking that to the extreme, which is getting you pot committed, running out hands you beat, ect.

Also, you've made 4 threads other than this one in the hand analysis forum, and these two in particular deal with bet sizing:

Thread #1
Thread #2

If you read them again, no one in those threads is telling you to overbet the pot. They're telling you to make a c-bet of ~75% of the pot. So we're telling you the same thing in this thread. Except now you've got the opposite problem. In those threads you were too weak, in these you're too strong. You need to find a nice happy middle.

Generally my preflop & flop play is all standard.

I raise 3xBB's + 1xBB for each additional limper preflop. Then postflop I usually make a continuation bet of ~70% of the pot.

While I'm not saying this is *always* the line that you need to take, its a good starting point. If the board is extra drawy, or there are more players in the hand, you can bet more, but in general lines like this will keep you out of trouble.
 
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