10-10 in small blind..

Logan2

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I have one hand today with 3 players with pocket pairs and this one remembers me that hand.

I think in this hand one of the guys enter with a low pocket pair and make trips in the flop , i cant imagine the joy if some one enter with 44 XDDDD

At this point too many hands can be there, i think i check or fold
 
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skoucail

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For me also 2 options, check or a big bet, I'm not very experience and i wouldn't give up my whole tournament for pair of 10s so i would check here and see what the river brings
 
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Cobryn

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Ok so Logan is open folding. I think this is not even an option.

I'm also thinking besides the hands that have us beat... A9 might call here when I push. Hell, K9 might call. I'm not going to be afraid of a terribly played set or quads. This is an opportunity to chip up with a great sized pot and I am convinced I have the best hand.

If I got caught in some elaborate trap set by some donk who has absolutely no clue how to protect his hand, then so be it.
 
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bob_tiger

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Ok so Logan is open folding. lol.

I'm also thinking besides the hands that have us beat... A9 might call here when I push. Hell, K9 might call. I'm not going to be afraid of a terribly played set or quads. This is an opportunity to chip up with a great sized pot and I am convinced I have the best hand.

If I got caught in some elaborate trap set by some donk who has absolutely no clue how to protect his hand, then so be it.

Any need for that? Why be a jackazz and make fun of someone's opinion, I have a different view of how I would play then hand than u do but did I ever make a jackass comment about your comments. Comments like that drive away newer members from posting because they expect to be made fun of, so learn to respect other people's opinion as I did to yours even though I completely disagree with your opinion on this hand.
 
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Cobryn

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Because I think its pretty obvious that she lost the hand and its obviously skewing how people are saying they would actually play this hand.

I appologise if I came off as a jackass when I laughed when someone said they would possibly open fold in this situation. But it is obviously not the right move and no one would actually make it.

I am here to improve my game. I put a lot of thought into the hands I comment on. And if I am coming off as someone who is making the absolute wrong play and my thought process behind it is completely unjustified... then I hope that you would explain to me that it is.

Please dont hold back on account of my feelings, because if it helps my game I appreciate it.

Again I appologise if I hurt their feelings, and I edited the post.
 
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bob_tiger

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Because I think its pretty obvious that she lost the hand and its obviously skewing how people are saying they would actually play this hand.

I appologise if I came off as a jackass when I laughed when someone said they would possibly open fold in this situation. But it is obviously not the right move and no one would actually make it.

I am here to improve my game. I put a lot of thought into the hands I comment on. And if I am coming off as someone who is making the absolute wrong play and my thought process behind it is completely unjustified... then I hope that you would explain to me that it is.

Please dont hold back on account of my feelings, because if it helps my game I appreciate it.

Again I appologise if I hurt their feelings, and I edited the post.

I been trying to explain why checking was a better option on the flop but for u it seems like it goes through one ear and comes out of the other.
 
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Cobryn

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I understand the thinking behind what you are saying, but I think I've made a pretty good argument to bet there as a more aggressive play, and especially here as well. I think her bet was too small on the flop. But in hindsight the way it played out I think she got a lot of information from it because no one raised.

However a half pot bet might have gotten A4 or 54 out of the hand... and a quarter pot bet might not.

You think its possible that a set doesnt protect its hand against four hands and a flush draw and I'm having a hard time believing that any mediocre player wouldnt see that and protect. I've given what I think are good reasons above.

If you said something and I ignored what I thought and said "Ok you're right" and gave up, there really wouldnt be any reason to have the thread.
 
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BostonRobber

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Just catching up. I would have called pre-flop, check raised the flop to a pot sized bet if it came back around, if not I would open with a pot sized bet on the turn. If someone has AA or a set they will likely push back on the check raise. Based on the villians past performance I'll either fold or call. If I just get called I'll probably check it down from here. The hard part of this board is figuring out if someone has an overpair. If you don't set the price for finding out someone else is likely to do it.
 
bob_tiger

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I understand the thinking behind what you are saying, but I think I've made a pretty good argument to bet there as a more aggressive play, and especially here as well. I think her bet was too small on the flop. But in hindsight the way it played out I think she got a lot of information from it because no one raised.

However a half pot bet might have gotten A4 or 54 out of the hand... and a quarter pot bet might not.

You think its possible that a set doesnt protect its hand against four hands and a flush draw and I'm having a hard time believing that any mediocre player wouldnt see that and protect. I've given what I think are good reasons above.

If you said something and I ignored what I thought and said "Ok you're right" and gave up, there really wouldnt be any reason to have the thread.

You are the one that said it's a 2$ tournament, meaning some players don't understand odds, implied odds,outs, %s..etc etc, therefore one of them might be "trapping" without understanding it.
Have this been a higher buy in tourney, you can safely assume what you said but its not so you still can't think that no one has a set.
 
dj11

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Pertinent facts as I see them here;

-$2 MTT started out as a donkfest probably.......
-Level 7, so this is after the first break when things have settle down, and you can be fairly sure these players have some clue, but, again, it was a $2 game...
-No reads...
-First position raise!... This and the no reads fact are the most important thing I see. Because you have no reads you have to decide if this is really worth playing this hand. Sure villain could be hyper agro, and be playing ATC any damn way, but the relative similar stack sizes advise caution IMO.
-No reraises so far. Both the big stacks are in so danger runs amok. Another caution flag for me. This will be a dangerous hand to be in.
-You've got a very good starting hand, but it is only T's and you know that when there is one pair there is an increased probability of other pairs. That is a statistical fact. Personally, I find myself laying down equivalent hands like KQ, or QJ in very similar family style hands where I will be OOP unless I ate my Wheaties this morning and feeling gods hand on my shoulder.
-You will be first to act, and can very likely cap the betting with a call. There is some safety in calling because of this,but BB can of course alter this plan.

Hard to lay this down for sure, but I wouldn't want to raise here without reads. The pot odds have become overwhelming so IMO you call, and evaluate post flop. (cliff notes version)

Sorry if you've already updated the hand, I didn't want to be swayed by other replys.....
 
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silverslugger33

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I cant imagine in my life that I'm going to fold my tens when I'm getting somewhere along the lines of 7-1 odds preflop for a very small amount of my stack.

Looking back on it, neither would I. I read the blinds as 25/50 when they were in fact 125/250. Therefore, I thought the raise was 10 BBs rather than 2.
 
Debi

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Okay here is the turn and the reason I posted this hand. The thoughts going through my head were - there are too many people in this hand and I am beat. One of the chasers hit a 4 - or the nursemaidboy who min raised pre-flop had a bigger pair. My husband - who normally leaves me alone when I am making a decision - looks over at my laptop and says " great, go for it." Now I am afraid if I don't and I lose it will validate his concern that I am still not aggressive enough and that is why I don't win more. Now he meant no harm - and really didn't mean to be trying to tell me what to do cause he knows not to do that - it was just a reaction he had, assuming that was what I should and would do. So I said "I should check it" and did this:

pokerstars Game #23548035381: Tournament #129737093, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2009/01/03 21:59:22 ET
Table '129737093 50' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: donramon9 (8935 in chips)
Seat 2: fold monkeee (5965 in chips)
Seat 3: auzzie 10 (4970 in chips)
Seat 4: so il short (10605 in chips)
Seat 5: chili2721 (2970 in chips)
Seat 6: TONY_BORJAS (10420 in chips)
Seat 7: dakota-xx (9635 in chips)
Seat 8: platter177 (15675 in chips)
Seat 9: nurseman76 (7468 in chips)
donramon9: posts the ante 25
fold monkeee: posts the ante 25
auzzie 10: posts the ante 25
so il short: posts the ante 25
chili2721: posts the ante 25
TONY_BORJAS: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
platter177: posts the ante 25
nurseman76: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts small blind 125
platter177: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Tc Ts]
nurseman76: raises 250 to 500
donramon9: folds
fold monkeee: calls 500
auzzie 10: folds
so il short: calls 500
chili2721: folds
TONY_BORJAS: calls 500
dakota-xx: calls 375
platter177: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 5d 4h]
dakota-xx: bets 750
nurseman76: calls 750
fold monkeee: calls 750
so il short: calls 750
TONY_BORJAS: folds
*** TURN *** [7d 5d 4h] [4s]
dakota-xx: bets 8360 and is all-in
nurseman76: calls 6193 and is all-in
fold monkeee: folds
so il short: folds
Uncalled bet (2167) returned to dakota-xx
*** RIVER *** [7d 5d 4h 4s] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dakota-xx: shows [Tc Ts] (two pair, Tens and Fours)
nurseman76: shows [Ks Kh] (two pair, Kings and Fours)
nurseman76 collected 18361 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 18361 | Rake 0
Board [7d 5d 4h 4s 3s]
Seat 1: donramon9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: fold monkeee folded on the Turn
Seat 3: auzzie 10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: so il short folded on the Turn
Seat 5: chili2721 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: TONY_BORJAS (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: dakota-xx (small blind) showed [Tc Ts] and lost with two pair, Tens and Fours
Seat 8: platter177 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: nurseman76 showed [Ks Kh] and won (18361) with two pair, Kings and Fours


Grrrrrrr - I will follow my gut and instinct from now on and my husband apologized for blurting out something before I made my play lol.
 
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Cobryn

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Wow, that result really surprised me. I dont think the KK played the hand very well. There are so many hands that can be drawing to beat him and he smooth calls the flop bet. Personally I would have wanted to get the hand to heads up or take the pot down on the flop.

I guess everybody was right with the overpair. I can't imagine I would play KK like that in that situation, but its something I guess I'll think about the next time I have a medium pair and I'm in a situation like that.

Would anyone here play KK like that in this situation?
 
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bob_tiger

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Wow, that result really surprised me. I dont think the KK played the hand very well. There are so many hands that can be drawing to beat him and he smooth calls the flop bet. Personally I would have wanted to get the hand to heads up or take the pot down on the flop.

I guess everybody was right with the overpair. I can't imagine I would play KK like that in that situation, but its something I guess I'll think about the next time I have a medium pair and I'm in a situation like that.

Would anyone here play KK like that in this situation?

If everyone played perfect, there would be no donks that we make $ from. Yea he played the hand terrible in every way possible but like I said its a 2$ MTT and you can expect that at this level. Any decent player would of played that KK differently.
 
silverslugger33

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Tough break there dakota. He played that hand very poorly. He should have been raising you out of the hand, not to mention his preflop raise was far too small. Unlucky board.
 
Chiefer

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Wow, that result really surprised me. I dont think the KK played the hand very well. There are so many hands that can be drawing to beat him and he smooth calls the flop bet. Personally I would have wanted to get the hand to heads up or take the pot down on the flop.

I guess everybody was right with the overpair. I can't imagine I would play KK like that in that situation, but its something I guess I'll think about the next time I have a medium pair and I'm in a situation like that.

Would anyone here play KK like that in this situation?

this hand is why sometimes you need to step back and change gears a bit in poker. Aggressive poker is good, but ya gotta think sometimes, especially in low stakes poker. you can't just keep firing bullets all the time.

good thread dax, it's what the HA should be all about.
 
Steveg1976

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Why does everybody keep saying the villian played terribly. He played it passively but I don't think that is always terrible. He raised preflop and got a bunch of calls. And D donk bets into him small which usually means a draw or nothing. He could easily call here trying to get a shove from a person in later position but unfortunately nobody raises for him. Then D shoves the Turn which is a blank if she really was on a draw and thinks she might have some fold equity. I think you guys are writing the villian off a little too light here. Although it is a 2.00 tournament so it is possible he/she is just horrible and was trapping with KK.
 
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Hi,

I think your initial call is correct to see if you trip up. I would certainly call for that reason. If I miss then I'm out.

I'd have had a quiet word with myself before the call to analyse the future situation - since you're actually in a good position to do that. I'd note that if I infact hit, with all those people behind who called behind me with potential drawing hands, at this level, and that much money in the pot its going to attract a few possible callers. In that case I'd be pushing and may the best man win.

Now if I don't hit, i'd stick to my initial assessment,checking and hoping to see the turn, or I'm getting out. I'd have clarified this in my head before the call. I've done the analysis before the call of what's what - no need to change it. It's a solid analysis.

Now you've actaully seen the flop, you're putting youself in a pickle by re-evaluating something that doens't need it. This is why I'd have ran this through my head before the call in the first place - which I think you also did but for some reason decided to change your mind. Did you not consider you may hit a low flop?

(Just as an aside - this level is a nightmare for people playing any old trash and they do. Any number of hands could have you whopped here. Also there could a few drawers out there who'll just see the money and go for it. You have no reads, nothing.)

So if you want to change your mind here - which I wouldn't, your situation is such where you ask yourself:

1) If you check with the intention for others to act 1st to see what they do, what price are you comfortable a.Calling, b.Check raising? I personally don't think that's going to be cheap. Also if you check and it gets min raised and called all the way around back to you what do you do now? Are these players calling because the have a drawy hand, have a hand, calling because they have some medium hand but the odds are so good. You just don't know. What have you gained by calling? Not a lot. Not to mention someone hitting out a huge river bet.

2) If you lead out, how much money are you willing put in, and are you calling if you get raised, are you approaching a pot commitment situation... That looks like a disaster to me.

3) What outs do you have if it goes bad you're behind ?
Enough said.

It all look bad to me. Bad bad bad. If you stay in this pot it will cost you more money and you don't know where you stand. And it'll cost you even more money to find out. Each street costing more and terrible position.

Now, imo, due to your position any flop is dangerous for you here. Yes, you have an overpair, but that board is very dangerous. You may well have the best hand but you simply can't know. The question is, how much money are you willing to risk here to find out? or to attempt to narrow the field?

Trying to check down to the river at min cost is very unlikely.
Check and if needed run like mad... 'run Forest run.....' :)
 
Debi

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Thanks so much for all of the input - I read every single post in this thread at least once. I had no idea so many people would be willing to talk me through this hand and will definitely do it more often.

I appreciate the input from the new members here as well.

And nobody made fun of me lol. That flop bet sucked - but I knew it right away when everybody called, I should have checked - but if I was going to bet then the bet needed to be bigger.
 
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Paul_G

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Haha,

Don't think anyones going to laugh at you. If they do,so what? I'm quite prepared for people to laugh at me if I learn something out of it.
I'd rather make a complete monkey out myself than make the misstake in a game somewhere and lose £200 or so. There's nothing wrong with making mistakes and not everybody agrees with everyone else. The killer is not to make the same mistakes over and over again.

I was watching some hand analysis on PokerVt (D. Negreanu site) the other day, and they have a group of guys with microphones on recording what they think. I think its a real decent site. Some are decent/successfull poker players as well! The differences of opinion are quite notable actually. So if the pros disagree I think its a healthy thing.

One thing I'll add is that it's easy some guy sitting reading a forum article with Poker Stove in the background and slurping on a coffee.... as opposed to being in an actual game where youre on a timer countdown; or even someones called the clock on you in a live game for your stack. Even Dan Negreanu's said he's made a lose call sometimes. That's good enough for me!
 
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sw7104

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FWIW -- I think villain played terribly and got lucky. KK preflop should have bet bigger to get more $$ into pot and isolate hands. Was lucky no one hit 2 pair or set on the cheap flop. Then, on flop bet, gave away a cheap card to the flush draw!

Or, villain is an unorthodox genius, but I doubt it.
 
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Paul_G

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Yep, he played it badly. Lucky is an understatement imo lol.
Raise, isolation etc - it's all good advice.

But you know what, there are a lot of villans at this level ( and higher) who play this way. I think they try to be so clever they sometimes outfox themselves, and don't know what they were trying to do in the first place!
At this level I think you have to assume there are a mixture of all kinds of idiots who do this and many more exotic 'tricks'.

I don't think you can totally analyse the hands played by saying things like 'well its unlikely they have AA,KK because he would have reraised....' etc
These players can have ANYTHING. Yes, say it but don't take it as the written word! Some players say this and totally disgard that hand as a definite no show.

Your job is to think how they should play but as a starting position in your hand analysis. Then gather as much information as you possibly can and take your best shot at it with what you know. Then the more info you gather the more accurate you get. Then they leave/get knocked out hahaha and you start all over gain. Hopefully with some more chips in your stack.

That's why when I see stats of people using Poker Tracker etc and make a move prematurely because their hands 'dominate their range'. It's like they use it as an excuse or something. I can't use that info in isolation. They are extremely usefull but are a couple of pieves of the jigsaw puzzle.
 
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Cobryn

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Why does everybody keep saying the villian played terribly. He played it passively but I don't think that is always terrible. He raised preflop and got a bunch of calls. And D donk bets into him small which usually means a draw or nothing. He could easily call here trying to get a shove from a person in later position but unfortunately nobody raises for him. Then D shoves the Turn which is a blank if she really was on a draw and thinks she might have some fold equity. I think you guys are writing the villian off a little too light here. Although it is a 2.00 tournament so it is possible he/she is just horrible and was trapping with KK.

Ok, I'm going to explain IMO why I'm convinced he played this hand terribly.

The preflop play is what it is.

When there are four players beside you in on that flop and you have kings, with both a straight draw, a flush draw, and possibly other hands going for a set... you are setting yourself up for an absolute disaster on that flop when you dont bet.

By not betting that flop you have to be willing to throw your kings away on the turn too often. Anytime a diamond falls... even if its the king of diamonds... you could be drawing at 3.3-1 for all of your money on the river.

Besides this, there are numerous cards that could hit the turn that would fill straights here, to which you could be drawing dead on the river. Not to mention Ax.

He makes a bad play because the pot is almost 5000 when it gets to him on the flop and he doesnt protect his hand whatsoever. In my mind, 5000 chips is more than enough than to let FOUR random hands draw on you.

In my opinion villain was extremely fortunate here. To be able to play kings in this fashion you would have to have amazing discipline to be able to lay down your kings here. The way the hand turned out is absolutely the best way it possibly could have for villain... and with FOUR hands drawing on you... including Ax... to let this hand go past the flop without protecting your hand is insane to me.

Maybe I'm a donk and want to get some chips for my kings without letting FOUR hands draw at me and then having to make the decision that much harder for the rest of my chips if someone else does raise especially after letting them draw on the turn as well.

Poker Stove when I punch in that kings hand against that board against FOUR random hands shows an equity of less than 29 percent.
 
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sw7104

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Here's where I might possibly have played these KK this way, pre-flop -- when I was v. short-stacked, way below avg., deep in tourney, and I was desperate to catch up and risk getting outdrawn to build an ultimately bigger pot. Don't think that was the case here....
 
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kidpoker410

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well preflop this is a call only situation with that many people trying to see the flop. and unless you hit the set its almost a sure fold postflop as any over card most likely has paired one or more of the opponents. but then again it all comes down to what the flop was and what the action was postflop. if a jack or queen comes off and its checked around to you then u may want to take a stab at the pot, with that many people in the hand i doubt anyone would flop top pair and check it down. so if checked to you betting may not be the worse idea, but it could still lead to a lotta trouble if theres fishermen lerking.
 
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