10-10 in small blind..

Chiefer

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not to mention that min raising with any small pair such as 7 5 or 4 is a play you will see fairly often at these limits, and don't forget we have a multi way pot. it's entirely possible that someone has hit a set and will try to slow play it. i am playing this conservatively.
 
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shinedown.45

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results are not posted...we are on the flop and we are first to act..scroll down a little :)
I am scrolling down a little at a time, not looking at other posts so that my answers are totally mine and have no way been influenced by others.:)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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on this sort of flop i think we need to either be uber conservative and c/c a small bet and c/f to anything over half pot or so or look to try and get it in (CRAI is probably the best way to acheive this) - anything else is really horrible. the problem is we aren't going to like a lot of turn cards and the only way we're going to get money in really good is if a villain is really bad and has 99 or 88. Stuff like 66 or AdJd has a lot of equity against us and the worst case scenario leaves us drawing almost dead against what is likely to be a set from one of the other callers or a better overpair from UTG. either way being OOP leaves us at a huge disadvantage on the flop and even more of a disadvantage the deeper we get into the hand, and I don't see anyone leading into 4 other players on this flop with much that TT beats.

so basically we called preflop to set mine and i'm not deviating from that plan.
 
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skoucail

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I know the chance is small but does noone maybe puts him on a overpair in the hole? AA, KK, QQ, JJ?
 
Debi

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I appreciate the input on this hand so much - I posted it for a very specific reason which I will get into at the end.

I will post the next part in a bit - again it is on my laptop.
 
ZZFLOP

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I would call, you only need 5-1 implied odds to call and there's nobody to act after you. Did something freaky happened like a flop with a 10 and 2 high cards and was it set over set ?
 
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MaxxxW

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3 BB Raise to keep Only Good Hans involved , Preflop isn`t really interessting , more interesting is playing on an overcard flop .
 
ZZFLOP

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Oops, I misread your post, you have pocket 10's on a low but dangerous flop I always struggle in these situations, does one of your opponent has a higher pair or has someone flopped a monster ?

I would bet half the pot and if I didn't pick it up there I would check the turn and maybe the river too, depending on what cards appear.
 
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Cobryn

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I'm glad this came up because maybe I've been playing this hand completely wrong for a while. I take into account the buy in of this game and maybe I've been making a huge mistake on this type of board.

I threw this hand in poker stove and gave the opening raiser Ad Qh. Which I think is the kind of hand that could very well be here. Then I added in 3 random hands with this flop and 10s were about 25 percent equity.

That surprised me. I expected to be a little higher. Thats why I'm here. To improve my decision making.

I was very surprised to hear how horrible it was in some peoples opinions to try to bet at the pot and take it down here.
 
jaymfc

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well I started to reply earlier but didn't want to seem stupid and now I'm a little friendlier and care alot less :)
I was thinking pf you should have poped it up to 1500 or 2000 and narrow the field hopefully to HU . only way to see who's serious IMO , but everyone said just call and I agreed that they are right , good price to set mine and just fold if no 10 on flop . but now you have an overpair to the board but still no clue what anyone has ...... I'd bet out half the pot and see who has what . but hey thats why I can't win anything , JMO and wanted to hear myself talk so I could figure out what the heck I'm thinking sometimes :)
 
Debi

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Okay -well I understand what some of you are saying about checking and seeing who acts. But I thought if I made a small bet I could see if anyone raises, particularly the guy who min-raised pre-flop so:

pokerstars Game #23548035381: Tournament #129737093, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2009/01/03 21:59:22 ET
Table '129737093 50' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: donramon9 (8935 in chips)
Seat 2: fold monkeee (5965 in chips)
Seat 3: auzzie 10 (4970 in chips)
Seat 4: so il short (10605 in chips)
Seat 5: chili2721 (2970 in chips)
Seat 6: TONY_BORJAS (10420 in chips)
Seat 7: dakota-xx (9635 in chips)
Seat 8: platter177 (15675 in chips)
Seat 9: nurseman76 (7468 in chips)
donramon9: posts the ante 25
fold monkeee: posts the ante 25
auzzie 10: posts the ante 25
so il short: posts the ante 25
chili2721: posts the ante 25
TONY_BORJAS: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
platter177: posts the ante 25
nurseman76: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts small blind 125
platter177: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Tc Ts]
nurseman76: raises 250 to 500
donramon9: folds
fold monkeee: calls 500
auzzie 10: folds
so il short: calls 500
chili2721: folds
TONY_BORJAS: calls 500
dakota-xx: calls 375
platter177: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 5d 4h]
dakota-xx: bets 750
nurseman76: calls 750
fold monkeee: calls 750
so il short: calls 750
TONY_BORJAS: folds
*** TURN *** [7d 5d 4h] [4s]
dakota-xx: ????
 
Chiefer

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I am still in the check the flop club. your bet did nothing but give each villain proper odds and implied odds if they hit any part of the flop. your bet was too small. I suppose if i was gonna bet i would have bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot, leaning toward the latter.

The 4 is not the worst card you could have seen unless one of the villains is playing Ax and x=4, which is entirely possible and almost probable at this limit. i would not put another dime into this pot without more information from them.

check the turn and see who checks and who bets. hope that everyone checks and you see a free river. If you get a bettor, i would most likely fold unless you get a great price to call.

All and all, get to the showdown as cheap as you can.
 
FatBasset

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I've come in to this flop way late but here's my 2 cents.

Call pre-flop, I usually suspect a monster from an early min-raiser in low-limit tourneys. i've learned the expensive way eo assume my opponents are t least as good as myself until they prove otherwise.

Check on the flop. Even though I have an overpair, I don't like my hand much because I have no idea what's out there and I don't have much of a draw if i'm behind.

check the turn still too many people in the pot. however, the utg players mere call has me doubting my initial read of a strong pp.
 
pantin007

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Okay -well I understand what some of you are saying about checking and seeing who acts. But I thought if I made a small bet I could see if anyone raises, particularly the guy who min-raised pre-flop so:

PokerStars Game #23548035381: Tournament #129737093, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2009/01/03 21:59:22 ET
Table '129737093 50' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: donramon9 (8935 in chips)
Seat 2: fold monkeee (5965 in chips)
Seat 3: auzzie 10 (4970 in chips)
Seat 4: so il short (10605 in chips)
Seat 5: chili2721 (2970 in chips)
Seat 6: TONY_BORJAS (10420 in chips)
Seat 7: dakota-xx (9635 in chips)
Seat 8: platter177 (15675 in chips)
Seat 9: nurseman76 (7468 in chips)
donramon9: posts the ante 25
fold monkeee: posts the ante 25
auzzie 10: posts the ante 25
so il short: posts the ante 25
chili2721: posts the ante 25
TONY_BORJAS: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
platter177: posts the ante 25
nurseman76: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts small blind 125
platter177: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Tc Ts]
nurseman76: raises 250 to 500
donramon9: folds
fold monkeee: calls 500
auzzie 10: folds
so il short: calls 500
chili2721: folds
TONY_BORJAS: calls 500
dakota-xx: calls 375
platter177: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 5d 4h]
dakota-xx: bets 750
nurseman76: calls 750
fold monkeee: calls 750
so il short: calls 750
TONY_BORJAS: folds
*** TURN *** [7d 5d 4h] 4♠
dakota-xx: ????
i dont think that the bet on the flop does anything, ur going to get called by basically everything that called preflop, i prefer a check
against 3 other players, i check the turn as well, unless someone has a pretty big hand i dont think anyone is going to bet at it here so u could probably see a cheap showdown
if someone bets, i fold
 
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Dr_Dick

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This is tough because basically every opponent has shown weakness the entire way, including you with a 750 bet. IMO the calls mean overcards and draws. Overpairs, sets, two pair would most likely get aggressive here. Flopped straight...can't worry too much about that.

So I risk half my stack here. I'm betting a few of my opponents hold AK,AQ,KQ,KJ type hands and others are on draws. They are all weak. Put out a nice bet like 4K.
 
bob_tiger

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I Would like to know why is everyone so freaking married to this hand? With the stack we got, we can easily let this hand go and wait for a better spot. We are in a 5 way pot OOP, and like chiefer said that bet did absolutely nothing, it gives us no info on what anybody has and we lost control of the hand. The 750 bet into 2250 pot was just a waste of chips.
You are now in a 4 way pot on the turn and still pretty much screwed, just check and try to get a cheap showdown, one of the other players can easily have a set and is just "trapping".
 
bob_tiger

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This is tough because basically every opponent has shown weakness the entire way, including you with a 750 bet. IMO the calls mean overcards and draws. Overpairs, sets, two pair would most likely get aggressive here. Flopped straight...can't worry too much about that.

So I risk half my stack here. I'm betting a few of my opponents hold AK,AQ,KQ,KJ type hands and others are on draws. They are all weak. Put out a nice bet like 4K.

The pot is 2250, why in the world do you bet 4k, you are only getting called by better hands, you are praying, hoping that nobody has anything and why would you risk half of your stack? There are going to be much better spots than this.
 
C

Cobryn

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The pot after this turn is 5975.

Thats a huge pot. It is true that no one has shown strength. Anyone who doesnt raise her bet with a larger pocket or a set I think is just playing like an absolute donk with the flush draw out there and five hands.

At one point you have to protect your hand, even a set of 7s on that flop with the other drawing possibilities out there.

So again... no bet?

I think the four is a great card for us. Now its unlikely that someone had a set of fours. Because no one raised on the flop I think its unlikely that theres a bigger pocket or any set there.

9365 and now have 1275 invested in this pot of 5975.

I'm probably wrong here... but I'm gonna go ahead and push right here. A bet of half the pot is going to make this hand nearly impossible to get away from, so I'm applying maximum pressure right now.

At this point I am absolutely convinced I have the best hand save some miracle A-4 that played here. And I'm gonna take my chances. I want this pot and I believe I have the best hand. I dont want anyone to see another card.

Thats my opinion and I'm probably terribly wrong here... but I just dont see this elaborate trap that a set made on that flop with all of those hands in and drawing to beat them. I'm not looking to get called, and I dont expect to be.
 
Chiefer

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Thats my opinion and I'm probably terribly wrong here... but I just dont see this elaborate trap that a set made on that flop with all of those hands in and drawing to beat them. I'm not looking to get called, and I dont expect to be.


Dax said she had no reads on the vilians. with that said, in your experience, what type of hand is going to call a min raise preflop. small pockets , high and low suited connectors IMO. everything else is a fold or a reraise. perhaps a smooth call with AJ or KJ, QJ depending on the player i guess.

hell, i'll call a min raise with a low suited connector out of principle that min raising makes baby jesus cry.

we've all played lows stakes poker, hell, i play it everyday, so we know what kind of play to expect. i would say i am a fair player and can make advanced plays even for micro stakes. so it is entirely possible that one of the villians has hit a set and is trapping. it's probably one of the most common plays in micros. so that is why i feel a conservative outlook on this hand is best.
 
C

Cobryn

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I understand that nearly any garbage can call once the hand gets to her. I think we're ahead of most of those hands right now.

Say you had the set of 7s on that flop.

Are you saying with four people that could be drawing to a diamond flush... you wouldnt raise that flop bet to protect your set? Especially knowing that you yourself would call with small suited connectors that are exactly the hand you need to protect against in this situation?

A diamond hits the turn 18% of the time after you dont bet a set on that flop, and then you're looking at about 3.3-1 to fill up on the river and if it did fall, you might have to make that decision for all of your chips.

Because of that... I think a set has to bet that flop. The pot is big enough to take down. Because it didnt, I dont believe they have one.
 
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shinedown.45

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Okay -well I understand what some of you are saying about checking and seeing who acts. But I thought if I made a small bet I could see if anyone raises, particularly the guy who min-raised pre-flop so:

PokerStars Game #23548035381: Tournament #129737093, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2009/01/03 21:59:22 ET
Table '129737093 50' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: donramon9 (8935 in chips)
Seat 2: fold monkeee (5965 in chips)
Seat 3: auzzie 10 (4970 in chips)
Seat 4: so il short (10605 in chips)
Seat 5: chili2721 (2970 in chips)
Seat 6: TONY_BORJAS (10420 in chips)
Seat 7: dakota-xx (9635 in chips)
Seat 8: platter177 (15675 in chips)
Seat 9: nurseman76 (7468 in chips)
donramon9: posts the ante 25
fold monkeee: posts the ante 25
auzzie 10: posts the ante 25
so il short: posts the ante 25
chili2721: posts the ante 25
TONY_BORJAS: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts the ante 25
platter177: posts the ante 25
nurseman76: posts the ante 25
dakota-xx: posts small blind 125
platter177: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [Tc Ts]
nurseman76: raises 250 to 500
donramon9: folds
fold monkeee: calls 500
auzzie 10: folds
so il short: calls 500
chili2721: folds
TONY_BORJAS: calls 500
dakota-xx: calls 375
platter177: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 5d 4h]
dakota-xx: bets 750
nurseman76: calls 750
fold monkeee: calls 750
so il short: calls 750
TONY_BORJAS: folds
*** TURN *** [7d 5d 4h] 4♠
dakota-xx: ????
I agree with the plop bet being way too low and with so many callers here, the only thing you can do here now is check/call, check/fold.
BTW, I do like the fact that you have taken pot control:)
 
silverslugger33

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Well, I actually would have folded preflop, but that's past at this point. The fact is though, short of flopping a set, this is the best flop that you really could have hoped for. You have 3 under cards, and with a preflop raise, the chances that anyone has a 63 or 68 for a straight is pretty low. Now, the thing you have to be worried about is a set or a pocket pair higher than yours. If you thought someone might have a higher pocket pair, then you should have folded preflop, so unless your read has changed, it's time to figure out if you're up against a set or not. Now, this is nearly impossible to do since you're first to act (another reason why I would have just folded preflop, but again, that doesn't matter at this point). If you want to bet, you have to decide how you'll react to a raise. At this point there should be roughly 2500 in the pot, so lets say you plan on betting out around 1500 or so. Before you make the bet, you have to know what you'll do if someone a) raises to between 3K and 4500 or b) takes you all in. If the answer to a is that you'd fold, then you shouldn't make the bet. If you aren't willing to push, then it's still not a terrible bet to make, but that's only if you feel like you can get back into the tournament with the 7500 or so in chips that you would have left. So, after thinking ahead, if you're willing to call a raise, then you should probably bet out. Otherwise, just check and maybe see a free card and hit a ten.

edit: I didn't see the 2nd page, but this is my analysis for post flop

Anyway, now here's my advice for the turn:

The turn is a really good card for you. Chances are, if someone only had a pair of 4s, they probably would have folded on the flop. You still have a pocket over to the board. And possibly most importantly, the flush draw didn't hit (yet). Now, you need to make a big enough bet that someone with a flush draw isn't getting equity to call (which you didn't do on the flop). You should bet out half the pot at this point. While this might scare off a hand like A7, it's worth it to get rid of the flush draw. Also, since no one raised on the flop, you should be relatively sure that your hand is good at this point (its possible someone has JJ but I doubt it). Slow playing a flop that's 5-handed would be completely foolish, so if someone hit a set on the flop, they'd probably have raised you. Make a strong bet here, don't give draws equity to call, and if you don't get a caller, that's perfectly fine.
 
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C

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Well, I actually would have folded preflop.

I cant imagine in my life that I'm going to fold my tens when I'm getting somewhere along the lines of 7-1 odds preflop for a very small amount of my stack.
 
shinedown.45

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I understand that nearly any garbage can call once the hand gets to her. I think we're ahead of most of those hands right now.

Say you had the set of 7s on that flop.

Are you saying with four people that could be drawing to a diamond flush... you wouldnt raise that flop bet to protect your set? Especially knowing that you yourself would call with small suited connectors that are exactly the hand you need to protect against in this situation?

A diamond hits the turn 18% of the time after you dont bet a set on that flop, and then you're looking at about 3.3-1 to fill up on the river.

Because of that... I think a set has to bet that flop. The pot is big enough to take down. Because it didnt, I dont believe they have one.
You make some very valid points, but you have to remember this is a low-limit tourney where alot of players have no concept of how to protect their hands from draws and those same players think the slowplay is the ultimate poker move and based on this is why Daks has to check her next move.
 
bkniefel

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What I usually do with mid to JJ is limp or call. Rational reasoning behind this play is quite simple in my mind. If you play the pirates code (take everything, and give nothing), you are risking nothing with everything to gain. If you hit, great, if not, it's okay. You are never forced into a big pot.
 
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