$1 SnG, ATo in the BB

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Some more micro stakes fun.

Reads: villain is aggressive, though maybe not very clever about it. Has recently been caught bluffing all the way to the river with an AJo that missed everything. Has also pushed me out of a medium sized pot recently.

Seat one has played a bit tighter, has been happy to use his big stack to see cheap flops and then get away if he doesn't hit.

full tilt poker Game #6106229800: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (Turbo) (46481063), Table 1 - 80/160 - No Limit Hold'em - 8:14:59 ET - 2008/04/20
Seat 1: Workimma (3,600)
Seat 5: OzExorcist (1,640)
Seat 6: ropek (1,485)
Seat 7: WHISSKAS (2,590)
Seat 8: krnairic (3,030)
Seat 9: UrBigDumbPappy (1,155)
Workimma posts the small blind of 80
OzExorcist posts the big blind of 160
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OzExorcist [Ah Td]
ropek calls 160
WHISSKAS folds
krnairic folds
UrBigDumbPappy folds
Workimma calls 80
OzExorcist checks
*** FLOP *** [4c Ac 5h]
Workimma checks
OzExorcist bets 350
ropek calls 350
Workimma folds
*** TURN *** [4c Ac 5h] [6s]
OzExorcist checks
ropek bets 975, and is all in

WWKLD?
 
ztw30

ztw30

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this is a tough situation with your position i would have raised them to see where i am at. I would never make a call even in the big blind if i had somewhat of a hand. you just wont have enough info after the flop comes.

Now on to the calling part i think the pot was 1910 after all the acion and a bet of 970. You only have an M of about 7 pre-flop. with the top pair and 2/1 on your call i would say this would be an auto call. he could have anything and you are technicallly in the yellow zone on you chip stack.

In my opinion easy call.
 
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Bentheman87

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Why did you check on the turn, you should have shoved. But as played it's a call, the 6 couldn't have helped him unless he has ace 6 or 66.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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I guess I checked the turn for two reasons:

One is I might be behind, specifically hands like A4 / A5 or sets. Or maybe even A6 now. To be honest, I would've preferred a paint card to a low card on the turn.

Other reason is that if I am up against a weaker ace than mine and I shove the turn, I might not get any more chips out of the villain.

If I shove, I figure I'm likely only getting action from hands that beat me. If I check... I might still get action from a hand that beats me, or I might get action from a weaker ace who figures I was bluffing the flop. Particularly when I'm up against an opponent who's shown a willingness to three-barrell with weak hands.

The question is, which is this? Something that beats me, a weaker ace, or a stone bluff?
 
BelgoSuisse

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Shove preflop. There's 480 in the pot and no one showed any strength. At worst you're coin flipping against a small pocket pair, but most likely you just get to steal the dead money.
 
ABorges

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I don't mind the check preflop, though I wouldn't mind a push either. I like the flop bet, but I would also accept a check-raise attempt since the player left to act is aggressive and has shown he can bluff. I really like your line on the turn, if you push there you'll only get action from hands that crush you, but if you check you may as well put it in there against weaker holdings. Since you're getting 2-1, this call only has to be good 1/3rd of the time, and when you're playing absolute micro stakes, 2-1 is a good price on top pair. I call. Though since you're posting the hand, I fully expect him to turn over A6, 66, a bigger ace or something along those lines. Oh well.
 
KenFischer

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Villian probably figures that if you had an A you would have raised pre-flop, so they think that you caught something on the flop, and were trying to represent the A.

When you check the turn, they might read it as a "semi-bluff on the flop, but slow down if anyone calls". Once you show weakness, it opens the door for them to take it away from you with any AXs or medium pair, especially since it worked before.

Seems like they want you to fold - I would disappoint them :)
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Shove preflop. There's 480 in the pot and no one showed any strength. At worst you're coin flipping against a small pocket pair, but most likely you just get to steal the dead money.

The thought crossed my mind briefly - I've still got an M of about 7 though, and there's a couple of stacks shorter than mine so I'm not really looking for a pre-flop coinflip here.

Also, while there is 480 in the pot, it's not really going to make much of a difference to my game. I'd be risking either my whole stack, or being crippled, for what is a fairly small gain in the big scheme of things. When there's a lot to lose and relatively little to gain in a game like this, I tend to prefer the more conservative line.

I'm not saying that I'd necessarily fault someone for shoving here, it's jut not really how I roll in this spot.

Any other discussion on this one before we move on to results?
 
BelgoSuisse

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The thought crossed my mind briefly - I've still got an M of about 7 though, and there's a couple of stacks shorter than mine so I'm not really looking for a pre-flop coinflip here.

Also, while there is 480 in the pot, it's not really going to make much of a difference to my game.

I think you are very wrong on both accounts.

- 480 chips is a lot. It's 30% of your current stack and that's a huge boost.

- Shoving does not mean you are looking for a coin flip. Shoving means you think the other players showed weakness and you think you can steal this pot now. Given the action so far, I think you have a huge fold equity and you are just wasting it but checking preflop. Getting called would be unfortunate, but probably not a disaster, but what you really want is to steal the 480 right now.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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I think you are very wrong on both accounts.

- 480 chips is a lot. It's 30% of your current stack and that's a huge boost.

- Shoving does not mean you are looking for a coin flip. Shoving means you think the other players showed weakness and you think you can steal this pot now. Given the action so far, I think you have a huge fold equity and you are just wasting it but checking preflop. Getting called would be unfortunate, but probably not a disaster, but what you really want is to steal the 480 right now.

*shrugs*

From experience, the extra 480 isn't going to make or break this game for me, especially with the blinds going up fast.

What I am looking for at this stage is a double up - somewhere I can get my money in when I think I'm ahead by a decent margin. Risking my whole stack before the flop for the sake of two big blinds just doesn't fit the criteria.
 
BelgoSuisse

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*shrugs*

From experience, the extra 480 isn't going to make or break this game for me, especially with the blinds going up fast.

What I am looking for at this stage is a double up - somewhere I can get my money in when I think I'm ahead by a decent margin. Risking my whole stack before the flop for the sake of two big blinds just doesn't fit the criteria.

Then you need to completely revise your SNG strategy. Players who crush the SNGs do it by stealing blinds, not by waiting for good doubling up opportunities. There's a ton more +EV in blinds stealing than in any other type of play here.

And you need to stop worrying about risking your whole stack. It's actually a lot safer to shove this than to play it post flop. In the hand we discuss, you got a nearly ideal flop for your AT, yet on the turn you are now beaten by 23, 45, 56, 78, A4, A5, A6, 44, 55, 66, all legitimate hands for limpers but hands that would very likely fold to a preflop shove. If villain has AJ+, you lose your stack either way, but it's unlikely given the pre-flop limping. The only hands that you beat now that fit the betting are A2, A3, A7-A9 and a club flush draw semi bluff. So if you call here against his legitimate range, you are actually gambling with odds that are not really any better than what you would have had if your preflop shove had been called by a small pp, for instance. And if you fold here, you just lost 350 chips in a pot where you should have won 480 preflop most of the time.
 
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BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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To illustrate how 160 blinds are clearly not a small thing when you have 1640 in your stack, consider that if you were sitting in SB with your ATo and it was folded to you, shoving the BB would be a very profitable choice.

In the very worst case where your opponent sees your cards and only calls with AT+,22+, shoving has an EV of 1735, while folding has EV of 1560 and calling or raising out of position is a very difficult play.

In SNGs, the fishes limp and check, the average players raise, the sharks shove.
 
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Bentheman87

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"What I am looking for at this stage is a double up - somewhere I can get my money in when I think I'm ahead by a decent margin."

But you're hand may very well be ahead by a decent margin preflop. He might have ace 9 through ace 2 where you have him dominated. And at this stage, with an M of only about 7, you'll be very lucky if you can get your money in as a decent favorite before you get blinded to death. So you should be satisfied with getting your money in for a coinflip. And it's better to gamble for a coinflip with an M of 7 than to wait to gamble when your M drops to 3.
 
NineLions

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Shove preflop. There's 480 in the pot and no one showed any strength. At worst you're coin flipping against a small pocket pair, but most likely you just get to steal the dead money.

I think you are very wrong on both accounts.

- 480 chips is a lot. It's 30% of your current stack and that's a huge boost.

- Shoving does not mean you are looking for a coin flip. Shoving means you think the other players showed weakness and you think you can steal this pot now. Given the action so far, I think you have a huge fold equity and you are just wasting it but checking preflop. Getting called would be unfortunate, but probably not a disaster, but what you really want is to steal the 480 right now.

Agreed with, though don't overvalue your fold equity at this level. I've raised 99 against a button limper, forgetting that the limper limped 10% of his hands and never raised. After he thought and shoved the rest of his chips I was pretty sure I was behind but I sucked out against his JJ.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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don't overvalue your fold equity at this level.

^ this.

Yes, stealing blinds is part of my overall strategy for these games (particularly on the bubble), but you've gotta pick your spots and this just didn't feel like one.

We've also gotta remember the reads: in this case, I believe both players have gaping holes in their post-flop game. If the small blind doesn't hit I can take his blind pretty much risk-free (and if he does hit, he'll tell me about it first by betting and I've lost the minimum), and if I read the other villain right I can take a lot more than a big blind off them, again with much reduced risk.

If Belgo's strategy works for him then I'm happy for him - but there's more than one way to skin a cat I guess.

Anywho, time for results or are they beside the point in this one? :p
 
BelgoSuisse

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If Belgo's strategy works for him then I'm happy for him - but there's more than one way to skin a cat I guess.

Frankly, in the late stages of a SNG, I don't think that's true. I've been playing the $22 SNGs on full tilt for a month now and I've sharkscoped most of my opponents, and the one thing in common of all those who have a good positive ROI is that they use good push fold play in the late stages. The one thing in common of those who have negative ROI is that they limp too much in the last stages of SNGs.
 
Poker Orifice

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People referring to 'M' value of '7',. .and bein' in yellow zone, etc. this is an sng,.. not an Mtt,.. not a cash game either (you don't necessarily make a call if you've got pot odds when it risks your entire tourney,.. you can't reload).
I can't tell ya what to do in this situation, as mentioned above in other comment, it's not the situation I'd place myself in to begin with.
You say you didn't fire the 2nd bullet on turn cuz you were afraid he might be ahead of you (for one,. how will you know unless you do fire the 2nd bullet??,.. but more importantly, by not betting out on turn, are you keeping it in mind what you'll do if and when you're faced with a decision such as this one??.... by not betting out on turn it would seem as if one is just giving chips away anyways, if there's a chance that you're planning on calling.... maybe the guy thinks you've missed the flop and were betting out with a continuation bet,... who knows??).
limping and calling is 'loosing poker',... it's almost aways raising or folding for me (in many circumstances anyways).
With this hand, for starters, you're on the BB and are out of position,.. why not just shove from the get go??,.. then your limping opponent will be forced to a decision. Or,.. why not check, then smash the flop no matter what comes. Chances are he's missing it anyways.
Also,.. in the $1 sngs on pokerstars, the finer subtletys of the game are lost,.. basic sng strategy prevails,... play it hard!! (if considering a limp or trap,.. try to slide one in occassionally with decent-sized stack in later going so you can limp in from SB with the nuts when you're down to 3plyrs., trappin your opponents and gettin' as much of their chips in as possible,... prior to that,.. always play it hard!
 
Poker Orifice

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Trust me,.. listen to Belgo,.. he knows what he's talking about here.
 
Poker Orifice

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Oh,... I mean 'Fulltilt',.. almost same difference,.. although Fulltilt does seem much better at $1 buy-in sngs.You're doing something okay on the $1 tables,.. you're 12cashes in the last 20games,.. nothing wrong with that.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Agreed with, though don't overvalue your fold equity at this level.

To be honest, I've never played micro stakes on either full tilt or pokerstars. I did play microstakes on Everest, but I'm not sure how relevant that experience is.

My feeling is that given the level of play at micros, a decent push fold strategy would totally crush the games, but of course that's just my feeling. If I have time, I'll try it out one of these days. Would be a good training to see if I can multitable SNGs heavily (planning on playing 8 simultaneously at least if I play micros)
 
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Bentheman87

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"Late stages of a SNG with high blinds? Yes."

Belgo, I don't think there's anything wrong with pushing preflop because of all the reasons youve said, but I don't agree with you saying that this is a play you should be making all the time because I also think checking is fine too. It's getting toward the end but the blinds aren't really high yet. You're talking about fold equity, but even with an M of 3-5 you still have fold equity. I found once it gets below about 3 a shove will give your opponents correct odds to call you with ATC, so you're fold equity is gone.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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OK, seems we're gonna have to agree to disagree about the pre-flop action.

Any as-played comments?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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I'm gonna be away for a few days so I'll stick the results to this one up - feel free to keep discussing it and ragging on my pre-flop play, of course :)

The way I figure it, villain doesn't have a better ace than me - he would've raised pre-flop. He's probably got an ace of some description... but which one? If it's A4 or A5, I think he'd probably have re-raised me on the flop. I tend to think 44 / 55 are unlikely too, based on the same logic.

I know he limped in, but UTG I probably rule out the screwy type hands that Belgo mentioned which would've made a straight on me. Like I mentioned in the reads, this player has tended more towards playing big hands badly rather than messing around with connectors and and low cards.

If he's got A6, I've still go three outs. If he's got 66, OK, I'm crushed, but how did he call the flop bet? And if he's got a worse ace, he only has three outs. So:

OzExorcist has 15 seconds left to act, decides he could be beat but is probably ahead of villain's range
OzExorcist calls 975
ropek shows [2d As]
OzExorcist shows [Ah Td]
*** RIVER *** [4c Ac 5h 6s] [Qs]
ropek shows a pair of Aces
OzExorcist shows a pair of Aces
OzExorcist wins the pot (3,130) with a pair of Aces, and breathes a sigh of relief
ropek stands up
 
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