$1 NLHE MTT: Lost with KK, is my analysis correct?

[cifacia]

Hi!

I am getting back into poker after a small stint during my first year of college where I used to play a bit with friends. So I consider myself a beginner

Context is a deepstack 1euro, I have KK but ended up losing this is the hand and I think I played badly:


PokerStars - 125/250 Ante 30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players


CO: 199.6 BB
Hero (BTN): 204.38 BB
SB: 202.1 BB
BB: 192.16 BB
UTG: 200.38 BB
MP: 201.38 BB

6 players post ante of 0.12 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.22 BB) Hero has K♦ K♠

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB, UTG calls 2 BB

Flop: (10.22 BB, 3 players) 2♠ A♥ 8♣
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB, fold

Turn: (18.22 BB, 2 players) 6♣
BB checks, Hero bets 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB

River: (26.22 BB, 2 players) 9♣
BB checks, Hero bets 13.11 BB, BB raises to 26.22 BB, Hero calls 13.11 BB

BB shows 9♥ 9♠ (Three of a Kind, Nines)
(Pre 19%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
Hero mucks K♦ K♠ (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 81%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
BB wins 78.67 BB



So I have the strong feeling I played badly, but is it the following a better pattern?

Pre: I guess 3BB was alright here?

Flop: The bet was weak, I was mostly fishing for re-raising to check if there was an A there that was checking back to me. Maybe should've aggressed more?

Turn: Here I feel like I did the crucial mistake. Given that no one re raised on flop and here I got checked back, I should've done a much more sizeable bet? I guess 99 would have been scared off?

River: Not sure why I was not feeling he was chasing the flush, so in my head this was to get value. On the re-raise I had to call as I had too much invested in the pot and liked my odds vs the pot.


Is my read over what went on correct? Did I make other mistakes? I am really keen in improving my game and I am trying to analyse when I have a strong feeling of a hand I should've won

 

[naostarr]

The only way to win this hand is by forcing the BB to fold early. the problem is that there is a A on the board so you could be playing into that. The 3BB is a good bid but a good continuation bet might have done the trick. There are also some people who just don't fold no matter what you do so. Don't loose sleep over it.

 

[Sidetracked]

Pf maybe raise to 4 BB as there is a limper.

I think going for 3 streets of value with an Ace on the board is optimistic. I would check behind the river.

 

[Nr98]

Pf maybe raise to 4 BB as there is a limper.

I think going for 3 streets of value with an Ace on the board is optimistic. I would check behind the river.

Yes as a rule of thumb versus limpers: In position we raise 3x+1bb per limp, out of position we raise 3.5x + 1bb per limp. So 4 would be slightly better here.

Flop: I'd like to see a check here. The board is very static, we don't have to protect from much on KK and we can't go for three streets of value. If we want to do a range bet though go like 20-30%. But on this specific hand I'd rather check (as we don't need to protect). If we check flop, it's probably fine to bet bet or call call two streets here.

However as played:

Turn: Just check back after a call in a 3 way pot. Again we're IP, we don't need to protect as much on KK and we don't want to take ourselves to value town. However if we do bet river is a mandatory check back imo.

River: We already went for two streets of value (multiway). Just check back.

Takeaways:

• Raise slightly bigger preflop.
• Know why you are betting: Are we betting for value (if so, which worse hands are we targeting to call us)? Are we betting as a bluff? Are we betting for protection?
• In the case of an A high flop that is this static, we don't have to bet kings for protection. So either we value bet or we bluff. We can't take three streets of value multiway, and bluffing is not necessary on kings ofcourse so then rather check the flop.

 

[cifacia]

Yes as a rule of thumb versus limpers: In position we raise 3x+1bb per limp, out of position we raise 3.5x + 1bb per limp. So 4 would be slightly better here.

Flop: I'd like to see a check here. The board is very static, we don't have to protect from much on KK and we can't go for three streets of value. If we want to do a range bet though go like 20-30%. But on this specific hand I'd rather check (as we don't need to protect). If we check flop, it's probably fine to bet bet or call call two streets here.

However as played:

Turn: Just check back after a call in a 3 way pot. Again we're IP, we don't need to protect as much on KK and we don't want to take ourselves to value town. However if we do bet river is a mandatory check back imo.

River: We already went for two streets of value (multiway). Just check back.

Takeaways:

• Raise slightly bigger preflop.
• Know why you are betting: Are we betting for value (if so, which worse hands are we targeting to call us)? Are we betting as a bluff? Are we betting for protection?
• In the case of an A high flop that is this static, we don't have to bet kings for protection. So either we value bet or we bluff. We can't take three streets of value multiway, and bluffing is not necessary on kings ofcourse so then rather check the flop.

Thank you so much! This is very helpful!

 

[Nr98]

Thank you so much! This is very helpful!

No worries, if you got any questions feel free to reach out

 

[fundiver199]

Turn: Here I feel like I did the crucial mistake. Given that no one re raised on flop and here I got checked back, I should've done a much more sizeable bet? I guess 99 would have been scared off?

This is the definition of results oriented thinking. We dont play a hand backwards from showdown to figure out, what would have been best against Villains exact holding. As Nr98 said already, we need a reason to bet in poker, and that reason is never to fold out a 2-outer hand. We bet to get called by worse or to fold out hands, that have significant equity or are even ahead.

Moreover we never bet "for information". You are levelling yourself, if you think, people will always raise top pair on the flop, and that just because you bet and got called, now nobody can have it. Yes they can, and if you continue betting, you will often just be value owning yourself. In a multiway pot with KK on A high board, you are normally just looking to get to a cheap showdown.

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, I agree with guys. You should play more pre flop. In micro level, in tournament for 1 euro I play isolation at least 4x, on this deep stacks, I play isolation even 8-10x with monster hand. On the flop standard continuation bet over 50%. When one of them played check/call on the flop I usually give up our hand. Usually opponent's check/call on the flop means that he has top pair. I don't see here any draws to flush or straight on this flop, so very possible is top pair. On the river I prefer playing check and I want showdown. As played - on the river opponent show you that he has something strong. Check/raise usually means force and you have clear fold to his check/raise. I usually believe that opponent doesn't bluff me.

 

[SuzdalDEcor]

Preflop you must raise 5BB. When you get 2 calls and this board your hand is a bluff-catcher. So, why you bluff with kings on the flop? In most of cases you get calls from better hands. When you get call on the flop you must play check-fold only.
If i have played this hand, i`ve played check-call flop or turn (only 1 street) and always check-fold vs next bettings with this hand.

 

[TheDude6622]

When we raise 3x the BB in microstakes and they call, of course they could have an ace, 80% of the time they don't and they feel like they are priced in. I like the bet on the flop. Once they call and the turn is a blank, we have to bet a lot bigger. We repped strength pre, and now is the time to show it. A half to 3/4 pot size bet on the turn would let them know you have a monster hand. This way you get the info you need.

The one thing you have to look out for when doing this, is that people in micro stakes do not like to fold pairs at any point. This player could be one of them, but we didn't give them the chance to do so.

 

[TheDude6622]

This is the definition of results oriented thinking. We dont play a hand backwards from showdown to figure out, what would have been best against Villains exact holding. As Nr98 said already, we need a reason to bet in poker, and that reason is never to fold out a 2-outer hand. We bet to get called by worse or to fold out hands, that have significant equity or are even ahead.

Moreover we never bet "for information". You are levelling yourself, if you think, people will always raise top pair on the flop, and that just because you bet and got called, now nobody can have it. Yes they can, and if you continue betting, you will often just be value owning yourself. In a multiway pot with KK on A high board, you are normally just looking to get to a cheap showdown.

Also this! A lot of people play results oriented thinking/poker. We need to realize we played small ball when there are cards that beat us on the flop.

 

[eetenor]

Hi!

I am getting back into poker after a small stint during my first year of college where I used to play a bit with friends. So I consider myself a beginner

Context is a deepstack 1euro, I have KK but ended up losing this is the hand and I think I played badly:


PokerStars - 125/250 Ante 30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players


CO: 199.6 BB
Hero (BTN): 204.38 BB
SB: 202.1 BB
BB: 192.16 BB
UTG: 200.38 BB
MP: 201.38 BB

6 players post ante of 0.12 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.22 BB) Hero has K♦ K♠

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB, UTG calls 2 BB

Flop: (10.22 BB, 3 players) 2♠ A♥ 8♣
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB, fold

Turn: (18.22 BB, 2 players) 6♣
BB checks, Hero bets 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB

River: (26.22 BB, 2 players) 9♣
BB checks, Hero bets 13.11 BB, BB raises to 26.22 BB, Hero calls 13.11 BB

BB shows 9♥ 9♠ (Three of a Kind, Nines)
(Pre 19%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
Hero mucks K♦ K♠ (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 81%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
BB wins 78.67 BB



So I have the strong feeling I played badly, but is it the following a better pattern?

Pre: I guess 3BB was alright here?

Flop: The bet was weak, I was mostly fishing for re-raising to check if there was an A there that was checking back to me. Maybe should've aggressed more?

Turn: Here I feel like I did the crucial mistake. Given that no one re raised on flop and here I got checked back, I should've done a much more sizeable bet? I guess 99 would have been scared off?

River: Not sure why I was not feeling he was chasing the flush, so in my head this was to get value. On the re-raise I had to call as I had too much invested in the pot and liked my odds vs the pot.


Is my read over what went on correct? Did I make other mistakes? I am really keen in improving my game and I am trying to analyse when I have a strong feeling of a hand I should've won

Thank U 4 Posting.

I have read only to your first raise preflop.
A standard raise size from some pros is 3x the limper + 1 for bb + .5 sb =4.5 total
You are both deep and you want to get 1 or 2 callers only, not invite a number of players to draw.
Most players at your table would conclude the limper is auto calling 2bb and chase with a wide range of hands. Remember when they call it is 3 to win 10.5 not 7.5

Ok 3 to the flop you are in position this is great for us.
This is not what we wanted to see but being in position lets us make decisions with the most data.

Check check we bet. 4 BB
What is your plan?
What kind of villains are they? passive aggressive tricky straight forward?
Knowing these things will help you make decisions
How likely is this villain to fold and ACE?
Is it common for the villains to just chase with and ACE?

We bet 4, we get 1 call from BB. On this board with no good draws we have to credit our V with a lot of aces in their range.

On the turn we may highly consider pot controlling by checking back. Few V's will fold an ACE but may call with 88 77 etc when we small bet river.
We need to know what range villain is betting on river? All the Aces but what else that we might beat. If it is nothing then we fold. If it 3 hands we beat and 20 hands we lose to we fold.

Data point that min check raise river is so loaded to nuts vs certain players that you want to record the frequency of nuts vs bluffs while playing vs your player pool.

Hope this helps

 

[cifacia]

Thank you guys for the replies! I certainly now understand the mistake and learned a lot!

 

[thehangdude]

I agree that your pre-flop bet should have been closer to 5BB For the reasons stated above, especially with everyone around 200BB. But be careful not to adjust up your preflop bet according to your hand. How much you bet pre-flop should have nothing to do with hand strength, only position and number of players.

On the flop, there are two things you could do, neither of them really wrong. You could check, which would almost force any ace to bet next round for a bit of value. You could value bet as you did, which somebody called showing you he had some reason for staying in. I like your bet. It shows you might have a strong ace, giving a smaller ace the chance to leave cheap.

Turn gives the villain two chances to chase, clubs and 68. With a 79 clubs, villain has about 30% chance (15 outs) so your bet needs to be closer to half pot.

No matter what the river is, there is no way I would bet, especially with the third club coming. There are just too many hands that could beat you, and few under a pair of kings would call you. No value to be had.

 

[Ianmacca99]

Preflop you need a slightly bigger sizing with one limper in the pot your giving the BB and limper attractive odds to and with a premium hand we are looking to build the pot.

Flop can go either way here between betting and checking. I personally like a bet your sizing was ok imo

Turn now looking to check back and pot control with A on board. If you are going to bet your sizing needs to be bigger there's now a flush draw so your giving draws cheap chance to outdraw you

River some two pair combos and backdoor flush on board as well as the ace so checking back this river is the best option for me .your looking for a cheap showdown were it's more than possible your behind