$1 NLHE MTT: Jack high flush draw + gut shot

[RamdeeBen]

I just wonder if this is the correct play here or not. I know I shoulden't of been limping this to start with only just 20 blinds left but because of the potential and good odds for calling, I decided flatting might be slightly profitable here if I hit the flop hard.

Basically with a gut shot draw and Jack high flush draw, when someone leads out here with under half a pot bet my first thought is he is trying to buy the pot because of such a weakish bet I check and anyone hitting a K or Q here would be 3/4 betting or nearly pot betting unless they held something like A,Kd which wasn't ever the case as no raise PF.

Anyway, I thought the check raise all-in would drive out his weak flush draw and any random weak middle pair, back door flush or hands like 9,10 etc...so my question with all this reasoning I can't ever just check down/fold or hope to hit a flush or my gutter can I ? Is shoving the only option and profitable option here as most times we still have fold equity?

Obviously I wasn't going to be to happy if he snap calls with any Ace/King here but even here I still have some outs to maybe make the best hand, but did I play the hand correct or was it incorrect to shove this flop?


pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.1 Tournament, 125/250 Blinds 25 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t15325)
MP3 (t3000)
CO (t14226)
Button (t13740)
SB (t3770)
Hero (BB) (t4990)
UTG (t9902)
UTG+1 (t19296)
MP1 (t9255)

Hero's M: 8.32

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9

, J

3 folds, MP2 bets t500, MP3 calls t500, 1 fold, Button calls t500, 1 fold, Hero calls t250

Flop: (t2350) K

, 2

, Q

(4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t750, 2 folds, Hero raises to t4465 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: t3850

 

[baudib1]

Interesting spot, reads on raiser would help.

Might be fun to go-and-go; 3-bet to $1200 and shove the flop.

 

[baudib1]

I think shoving pre might be better. MP3 and BTN's ranges are capped ldo and the pot is huge.

as played you flopped essentially the stone-cold nuts, I'd play the flop the same.

 

[Pascal-lf]

need to know stats on players to decide between check/shove flop, folding pre or shoving pre

 

[jbbb]

I'm drawing a blank looking at this. Stats or read of PFR would help but i'm thinking with your stacksize you don't have enough FE to make him fold a K or Q. Also can you deduce anything from the small c-bet size?
Might be tempted with shoving pre but again, 4000 chips doesn't give you a lot of FE over villians who have 15,000 - 20,000 chips

 

[RamdeeBen]

I think shoving pre might be better. MP3 and BTN's ranges are capped ldo and the pot is huge.

as played you flopped essentially the stone-cold nuts, I'd play the flop the same.

I was tempted to shove pre, but with 3 callers and already 2k in the pot nearly me shoving I think I'm being called by at least one, I didn't think I had much FE vs all these. It would look like the most obvious steal I thought, so thought just completing with 8/1 odds might of been better. So you think shoving the flop is the only move to make? Check shoving looks stronger and less likely to be called than just open shoving right?

need to know stats on players to decide between check/shove flop, folding pre or shoving pre

Initial raiser was quite active, min raised all the time, also folded to shoves twice. I'd say he was raising quite wide trying to buy the buttons, I didn't put him on anything much better than mine. If anything, shorter stack MP3 had me a little worried because he had really tight stats. Both big stacks was quite fishy if I'm honest and liked seeing flops.

Like I said to baubid, I didn't think I had any FE with 2k nearly in the pot to shove here and thought completing was better. I Think I was being called by such a wide range from both the big stacks and that shortie had me worried at first but I decided to check/shove anyway.

I'm drawing a blank looking at this. Stats or read of PFR would help but i'm thinking with your stacksize you don't have enough FE to make him fold a K or Q. Also can you deduce anything from the small c-bet size?
Might be tempted with shoving pre but again, 4000 chips doesn't give you a lot of FE over villians who have 15,000 - 20,000 chips

PF I don't think theres much FE..as for post flop though, his bet seemed so weak to me that he had a weaker flush draw or some sicko straight draw of something. I didn't put him on a King or Queen, as I can't see him betting so little unless he held A,Kd but I ruled that out. I put him on a weak ace or like I say, a smaller flush draw or straight draw, definitely not a K, or Q as I'd of thought just 3/4 betting or pot betting would of been better on this board.I think I'd of still shipped it if he did pot bet it and I honestly thought I had FE after his small bet and a check raise shove looked like I was repping a King or Queen and he will lay down most times I think his weak flush draw.

And yeah, exactly I didnt think I had any FE to shove preflop and even though limping wiht only 20 blinds left, 7/1 or 8/1 odds whatever it was seemed quite good to warrant the call. So in your eyes, you think folding preflop is the correct move here??

 

[Pascal-lf]

without MP3 i think it's a very nice spot to shove

with MP3 it's probably a fold because he can flat a ton of stuff that has you dominated/crushed and will call most of it off given his stack size

 

[RamdeeBen]

without MP3 i think it's a very nice spot to shove

with MP3 it's probably a fold because he can flat a ton of stuff that has you dominated/crushed and will call most of it off given his stack size

Wow, I didn't think I'd have any FE here to shove 2 big stacks and most likely crushed anyway PF?


As for MP3 limp too, even with the dead money ( I still have him covered) folding pre is good here? Are you never completing here then in my position? You are either just shove/folding PF?

 

[Poker Orifice]

. I put him on a weak ace< he's gonna cbet 4-way on a KQx flop w a weak Ace? really? then my notes on him would be pretty specific.. he's f'n shitty or like I say, a smaller flush draw or straight draw, definitely not a K, or Q as I'd of thought just 3/4 betting or pot betting would of been better on this board.I think I'd of still shipped it if he did pot bet it and I honestly thought I had FE after his small bet and a check raise shove looked like I was repping a King or Queen and he will lay down most times I think his weak flush draw. < and he's gonna fold here w a FD when he figures you've rrai here while getting over 2to1? (with a 60bb stack)

And yeah, exactly I didnt think I had any FE to shove preflop and even though limping wiht only 20 blinds left, 7/1 or 8/1 odds whatever it was seemed quite good to warrant the call. So in your eyes, you think folding preflop is the correct move here??

I don't mind the call pre here.... yah you're OOP but you're closing out the action (not having to worry about a squeeze behind).

 

[WiZZiM]

I don't really think calling is ever very good in this spot. If we feel the need to play it, come over with a 3bet shove, the go n go isn't a great idea in a $1 tourney, theres too much chance we get multiple callers i think and MP and button have stacks to flat a smaller 3bet.

It wouldn't be a bad spot to just jam it in pre-flop, we have a hand that is rarely dominated and plays well in an all in situation. Since MP has a large stack, he's more likely stealing, and the other stacks behind him we can't worry about too much.

THe only problem i see is that the MP3 may just call off the rest of his 2500 stack.

As others have mentioned, in depth reads would help a lot. The reads i'm looking for are something like, MP2 is loose, MP3 is bad limper/weak/scared The button i really don't care about at all here. If you think these players fall into this category, then i'm happy with just shoving.

So yeah, it's either a fold pre or a shove pre for me, there really isn't any playability to just flat and we're just setting ourselves up to ship it in on the flop with the worst hand a decent chunk of the time (like if we hit a pair we are probably not folding). I think i'd fold this pre a lot of the time without reads, but it's really tempting to shove as the pot is huge and theres lots of dead money.

 

[WiZZiM]

To make this call pre-flop, we have to think about a few things Ram.

1. How often is my hand going to hit the flop, (draw or pair or better) that is good enough to get chips in postflop.

2. How often do i get paid if i do hit, and how much will i potentially get paid. ( we need to win a fair bit more than what we invest to show a profit with calling)

3. How often do i hit my hand, and it's still not good.

4. Can i do something postflop when i don't hit my hand to take the pot away at times?

5. Can i afford to lose these chips?

6. What is my position and how does that affect my postflop actions?

7. WHat will be the Stack to pot ratio (rough guess) if i call, and how does that affect the playability of the hand?

(probably a ton more, baudib and pascal can mention here too)

There are others, but instead of looking at pot odds alone, start to think about the possibilities.... basically, just use logic to think through a situation.

 

[baudib1]

Have to assume MP3 and BTN are terrible. I don't mind getting it in vs. MP3's lolable range given the dead money.

as played I'd absolutely check-shove the flop.

 

[Pascal-lf]

so you peel pre?

 

[baudib1]

no I'd shove. we should be 30%+ almost all the time.