$1 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Here is the stupid one:74 off hit three of a kind aggression on river

[ljove]

$1 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Here is the stupid one:74 off hit three of a kind aggression on river

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 55/11/1.75

Full Tilt - 15/30 NL - Holdem - 8 players
BTN: 5,920.00
SB: 3,050.00
BB: 3,000.00
UTG: 2,970.00
UTG+1: 2,970.00
MP: 2,640.00
MP+1: 2,910.00
Hero (CO): 6,220.00
SB posts SB 15.00, BB posts BB 30.00
Pre Flop: (45.00) Hero has 7h 4c
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 90.00, fold, SB calls 75.00, BB calls 60.00
Flop: (270.00, 3 players) 9s 3c 4h
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 120.00, SB calls 120.00, fold
Turn: (510.00, 2 players) 4s
SB bets 150.00, Hero raises to 420.00, SB calls 270.00
River: (1350.00, 2 players) 5h
SB bets 1,050.00, ???

 

[Pascal-lf]

Fold pre.

Flop bet is OK, as long as you shut down as soon as someone calls if you don't hit. However, make it bigger - more like 180/200. You'll get a lot of respect for c-betting 3 way.

Raise turn more, probably going up to about 600.

Then river you can just put him in for rest of chips.

But still, fold pre.

 

[jbbb]

Why you raising 74o?

 

[ljove]

Why you raising 74o?

You must try with lot of hands if you want to win MTT.If you just wait for premium hands you will end like bubble boy with AA

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

Start stealing when the blinds are up a few levels. Early on you can see cheap flops with some speculative hands, and value raise your big hands.
Early stages microstakes, there are too many stations anyway, who will call raises with over 50% of hands. Especially with deep stacks.

 

[jbbb]

You must try with lot of hands if you want to win MTT.If you just wait for premium hands you will end like bubble boy with AA

Players like you tilt me lol. Thats why I don't play donkaments.

 

[ljove]

Players like you tilt me lol. Thats why I don't play donkaments.

I was tilted too
If you can't beat them, join them

 

[Pascal-lf]

You must try with lot of hands if you want to win MTT.If you just wait for premium hands you will end like bubble boy with AA

You've clearly misunderstood whatever anyone has told you.

The key to online tournaments is to sit tight in the early stages and loosen up later. When you steal with 74o here (I'm assuming you raise to steal, not raise for value...) you have the potential to win 45 chips - do you really reckon they will affect your 6,220 stack? Even if you raise rubbish every orbit for 10 orbits, you'll only increase your stack by like 7%, and that's as long as know one plays back at you or calls and outflops you.

However, in the later stages, stealing is crucial. That doesn't mean you should "try it" with many hands. You should maintain a tight image, otherwise you are just going to get abused by medium sized stacks (15-25bb) as they shove light over the top of your steals and you are forced to fold. Image is another advantage of playing tight in the early stages.

Let's say you have K6o and the blinds and 1,000/2,000 with an ante of 200. At the beginning of every hand, there is now 5k in the middle, and it folds round to you on the CO - you've got 125,000 chips. Just 3 steals of 5,000 represent nearly the same % relative gain as 10 steals of the 45 earlier in the tournament, but these 5,000 are also far more vital chips; the deeper in a tournament you get, the more equity you gain when you acquire chips. By that I mean, when you steal chips later in tournaments, by raising rubbish and winning, you give yourself a better chance of moving up a pay band. Whereas early in the tournament, it doesn't really have any effect.

HTH

 

[ljove]

You've clearly misunderstood whatever anyone has told you.

The key to online tournaments is to sit tight in the early stages and loosen up later. When you steal with 74o here (I'm assuming you raise to steal, not raise for value...) you have the potential to win 45 chips - do you really reckon they will affect your 6,220 stack? Even if you raise rubbish every orbit for 10 orbits, you'll only increase your stack by like 7%, and that's as long as know one plays back at you or calls and outflops you.

However, in the later stages, stealing is crucial. That doesn't mean you should "try it" with many hands. You should maintain a tight image, otherwise you are just going to get abused by medium sized stacks (15-25bb) as they shove light over the top of your steals and you are forced to fold. Image is another advantage of playing tight in the early stages.

Let's say you have K6o and the blinds and 1,000/2,000 with an ante of 200. At the beginning of every hand, there is now 5k in the middle, and it folds round to you on the CO - you've got 125,000 chips. Just 3 steals of 5,000 represent nearly the same % relative gain as 10 steals of the 45 earlier in the tournament, but these 5,000 are also far more vital chips; the deeper in a tournament you get, the more equity you gain when you acquire chips. By that I mean, when you steal chips later in tournaments, by raising rubbish and winning, you give yourself a better chance of moving up a pay band. Whereas early in the tournament, it doesn't really have any effect.

HTH

lot of people lot of styles without luck you can't win
I played realy lot of tournament and I know that.All poker philopsophy fall down when you get busted with aces against deuces just before ITM
It is not important is it good or not to raise 74off early.Important is how to play that river

 

[Pascal-lf]

Every street is important. Folding > opening pre.

And how does poker philosophy ever fall down when you get busted with aces against deuces? The very idea of poker is to make the best decision based on the information provided - the result is irrelevant.

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

Important is also that you avoid getting to rivers like this one (even though this is a fairly obvious ship) in the early stages.
It may seem like you can't control your luck, but you actually can
maximize your opportunities for getting lucky by playing marginal hands cautiously and cheaply, and minimize the chances that you get unlucky by playing strong hands aggressively.

Stealing with 74o in this spot is simply -EV.

 

[ljove]

OK guys it was stupid raise but I hit fours and he shows strenght on river.I put him on overpair but just take a look what hand he had here:
Full Tilt - 15/30 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 5,920.00
SB: 3,050.00
BB: 3,000.00
UTG: 2,970.00
UTG+1: 2,970.00
MP: 2,640.00
MP+1: 2,910.00
Hero (CO): 6,220.00

SB posts SB 15.00, BB posts BB 30.00

Pre Flop: (45.00) Hero has 7h 4c

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 90.00, fold, SB calls 75.00, BB calls 60.00

Flop: (270.00, 3 players) 9s 3c 4h
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 120.00, SB calls 120.00, fold

Turn: (510.00, 2 players) 4s
SB bets 150.00, Hero raises to 420.00, SB calls 270.00

River: (1350.00, 2 players) 5h
SB bets 1,050.00, Hero raises to 5,590.00 and is all-in, SB calls 1,370.00 and is all-in

Hero shows 7h 4c (Three of a Kind, Fours) (PreFlop 58%, Flop 70%, Turn 77%)
SB shows 6s 2s (Straight, Six High) (PreFlop 42%, Flop 30%, Turn 23%)
SB wins 6,190.00

62 suted call all streets OMG

 

[Pascal-lf]

He never plays an overpair like that.

 

[RamdeeBen]

This is the perfect example, of over playing and trying to get to creative in the early stages.

You have a HUGE stack in relation to the blinds and your raising up. Sure in the cutoff isn't a bad idea, the problem is your raising up to try "steal" such a small proportion of blinds it's not even worth it. You add 45 chips to your stack size, which really makes no difference at this stage.

Sure if there is a lot of dead money with ante's in play and it's worth quite a good percentage of your stack size then go ahead, try steal.

Now you got involved in a hand and sure your C-betting on a flop which in general misses you, on a drawy board so he calls (with a more likely hand to have a called a raise with connectors suited or unsuited or middle pair and has a set).

Worse case now is you have second bottom pair, you bet again which we must add on a board that is very likely to have missed you and more likely to of hit your villain.

He flats, you hit your trips. You bet again, he flats, river is a heart and another low middle card for straights. You're clearly beat when he bets out the river.

So, all in all - you basically wanted to try steal this pot for 30 chips and got yourself involved in a pot you felt you couldn't get away from and it has now cost you a huge amount of your chips.

As people say, fold pre. As soon as a board comes out like this, you're asking for trouble - these are great boards for donkey calls.

Just seen the hand and end results, so you lost your stack. I don't understand how you managed to shove on him on the river, this was clearly screaming straight/flush or beat in one way another when someone flats all the way down and fires on the river. Trips on that board is rarely good when faced with a raise after betting round action.

I'd of shut down after the flop and check/fold.

 

[ben_rhyno]

This is the perfect example, of over playing and trying to get to creative in the early stages.
He flats, you hit your trips. You bet again, he flats, river is a heart and another low middle card for straights. You're clearly beat when he bets out the river.
Just seen the hand and end results, so you lost your stack. I don't understand how you managed to shove on him on the river, this was clearly screaming straight/flush or beat in one way another when someone flats all the way down and fires on the river. Trips on that board is rarely good when faced with a raise after betting round action.
I'd of shut down after the flop and check/fold.

I think this logic is flawed. First, there is no flush and only 2 straights to worry about. We can't put villain on 62 here and since he called a decent raise on the turn, we can most likely discount 67. A2/56 could make sense here and think he is good on the river with his 5/betting the missed draw with a little showodwn value, but the most likely hand he can have that beats us is a set of 3's, 5's or 9's. Any overpair probably would have reraised and a pair 55-88 should have folded turn, Leaving only 3 possible hands that have us beat 33-99-A2. Against competent opponents here, I think trips is usually always good.
To be donking this river I would put villain on a big missed draw (straight/flush combo draw like A5ss, or an overplayed top pair like 89/9T or even A9.
IMO: Fold pre, save all of this hassle. As played, check the flop, bet larger on the turn, and shove the river.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Ben:

Oops - I miss read it I thought it was 3 hearts out there. Why not use a hand converter, makes it so much easier!

Someone calling a decent raise really doesn't mean anything at micros, they don't take any pot odds into anything most of the time and if they have a set they will just flat call all the way regardless and shove the river. They slow play sets 90% of the time, they will chase draws regardless even though there was no flush (which I mis read) the straight draw is very fesaiable and shoving the river after being flatted all the way is bad.

A villian woulden't flat call over pairs, most of the time. He can flat broadway cards but he certainly woulden't be calling down on that board chasing to hit a top pair, so the only other options here in my opinion are suited/non suited connectors. "Maybe" A,x but again, if he hits a pair, I think he's either betting or check/calling and NOT betting the river.

You're right, an over pair would raise so we get rid of that straight away, so what's is leave you? A draw or a set/fullhouse. When Villian bets the a decent amount on the river - you honestly think shoving is correct here? I don't, I think he has either had me crushed from the start or hit the nuts on the river and value betting nearly pot sized- I'm always laying this down if you think he missed his draw then just calling is the only option, not shoving on that board.

How you can say after he flats down to the river and then bets the river pot size on that board to come over the top and shove is beyond me, calling if anything but I opt for a fold.

 

[ben_rhyno]

Folding is surely out of the question when we have hit one of the only strong, disguised hands that 74o can make. As we have got this far with a pot so big, the call is trivial, and I would be shoving for value, just can't fold here.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Well,

Villian has only put in 500 chips out of his 3000, leaving 2500 behind. I can't see him betting 1k on the river with a missed draw or complete air, so I think hero can get away here, he has only donked off 500 in chips. Villian must recognise the preflop and streets of betting from Hero so must put him on a over pair at least. I can't see him risking his 1k with air on the river considering what hero was doing during the hand.

I don't think shoving the river is a good idea as mr.villian has now put in 50% of his chips and is always going to be calling. Hero on the other hand, if he wants to call(again I dont think good) is getting evens on his trips being good. I think it's a good value bet from Villian and one that stood out to me as being beat, I'd fold and lose the 500 as opposed to shove and giving villian 4/1 odds! He's always calling.

 

[ben_rhyno]

Well,

Villian has only put in 500 chips out of his 3000, leaving 2500 behind. I can't see him betting 1k on the river with a missed draw or complete air, so I think hero can get away here, he has only donked off 500 in chips. Villian must recognise the preflop and streets of betting from Hero so must put him on a over pair at least. I can't see him risking his 1k with air on the river considering what hero was doing during the hand.

I don't think shoving the river is a good idea as mr.villian has now put in 50% of his chips and is always going to be calling. Hero on the other hand, if he wants to call(again I dont think good) is getting evens on his trips being good. I think it's a good value bet from Villian and one that stood out to me as being beat, I'd fold and lose the 500 as opposed to shove and giving villian 4/1 odds! He's always calling.[/quote]
This is what we want when we are fairly sure we have the best hand

 

[ljove]

Maybe he got updated version of FT with just call & bet buttons(no fold)
I pushed all in on river and said:not again,another moron paying for just one card to get straight.
It is not good to bet 74 but it is not hard to fold them after cont.bet.
Here I hit possibly best hand on turn as played and I think it is totally moronic to call preflop with 62 and call 2 times to get straight or what,to hit pair of sixes.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Well,

Villian has only put in 500 chips out of his 3000, leaving 2500 behind. I can't see him betting 1k on the river with a missed draw or complete air, so I think hero can get away here, he has only donked off 500 in chips. Villian must recognise the preflop and streets of betting from Hero so must put him on a over pair at least. I can't see him risking his 1k with air on the river considering what hero was doing during the hand.

I don't think shoving the river is a good idea as mr.villian has now put in 50% of his chips and is always going to be calling. Hero on the other hand, if he wants to call(again I dont think good) is getting evens on his trips being good. I think it's a good value bet from Villian and one that stood out to me as being beat, I'd fold and lose the 500 as opposed to shove and giving villian 4/1 odds! He's always calling.[/quote]
This is what we want when we are fairly sure we have the best hand

Yeah of course when we think we have the best hand. I can't see how we would think our trips are good here given previous action, he was always hoping to get paid on the river and shove was a dream come true.

Different opinions I guess, but I certainly wouldn't be shoving, I'd of been folding the river.

On another note, if villian shoves the river are you also telling me this is a snap call in your eyes?

 

[RamdeeBen]

Maybe he got updated version of FT with just call & bet buttons(no fold)
I pushed all in on river and said:not again,another moron paying for just one card to get straight.
It is not good to bet 74 but it is not hard to fold them after cont.bet.
Here I hit possibly best hand on turn as played and I think it is totally moronic to call preflop with 62 and call 2 times to get straight or what,to hit pair of sixes.

You did hit a gin hand for the hand you raised with. People at micros though, always chase anyway, known as a calling station. When he bet the river you must of thought straight or fullhouse? I would of, then shoving I didn't like anyway but again I guess it's dependent on the history with him.

When someone is flatting down to the river, alarm bells go off you must of thought he was chasing?When he opens up with the river bet (sure could be a missed draw bluff bet) but most of the time these donkeys have hit and are betting out they will quite often fold a high majority when you bet out and would of check/fold if he did miss. You must also remember, when someone opens the pot to start with, the general thought process is high cards of some sort so when you're betting out he probably thinks you have nothing but maybe A high and he has a done of outs already.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Shoving here is all about whether he'll call you off with weak 9s like 98 and 9T. If he doesn't call these then there's no point shoving - he never has an overpair, so his range is better 4s (inc full houses/better kickers, you only beat 42 and 46), sets, rivered straights and two pair, and your 4 plays any random 9x two pair combo he's playing off the board most likely.

Given action I'm not sure river is always a shove...

 

[ben_rhyno]

I don't hink it's ever a fold here either though