$1 NLHE MTT: Called all in push on flop with AJ miss - but open ended straight draw - correct?

[Axmanace]

$1 NLHE MTT: Called all in push on flop with AJ miss - but open ended straight draw - correct?

pokerstars, $0.91 + $0.09 - Hold'em No Limit - 200/400 (50 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

oneblacklab33 (UTG): 4,340 (11 bb)
fishonybbq (UTG+1): 6,548 (16 bb)
TayngaRay (MP): 7,489 (19 bb)
dumbo3728 (MP+1): 20,626 (52 bb)
WitcherCoinsPlx (LP): 7,776 (19 bb)
PAINTRA1N_AA (CO): 3,884 (10 bb)
Levibt2018 (BU): 14,524 (36 bb)
DegenKhaled (SB): 12,538 (31 bb)
axman_G (BB): 6,847 (17 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,050) Hero (axman_G) is BB with A♠ J♥
2 players fold, TayngaRay (MP) calls 400, 2 players fold, PAINTRA1N_AA (CO) calls 400, 1 fold, DegenKhaled (SB) calls 200, axman_G (BB) raises to 1,200, TayngaRay (MP) calls 800, PAINTRA1N_AA (CO) calls 800, DegenKhaled (SB) calls 800

Flop: (5,250) T♣ 8♣ 9♥ (4 players)
DegenKhaled (SB) bets 11,288 (all-in), axman_G (BB) calls 5,597 (all-in), 2 players fold

Turn: (16,444) 2♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (16,444) 6♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 16,444

Showdown:
DegenKhaled (SB) shows T♦ 8♥ (two pair, Tens and Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 36%, Flop: 68%, Turn: 82%, River: 100%)

axman_G (BB) shows A♠ J♥ (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 64%, Flop: 32%, Turn: 18%, River: 0%)

DegenKhaled (SB) wins 16,444

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
With just 17BB and 3 limpers in the pot you should have moved all in preflop. When you only go to 3BB, you are letting 3 other players into the pot, two of whom have position on you. This is a pretty big conceptual mistake, which you need to correct. Using one of the rules of thumb from the CC 30 day course, whenever the pot size is more than 20% of your stack, you should either fold or move all in preflop. Here the pot was 2.050 chips, and you only had 6.847, so this was WAY into push or fold territory because of all the limpers.

Postflop
Since postflop should never have happened, it almost does not matter, but given the pot odds I would also have called off with an OESD and two overcards. Sure there will be times, where you are drawing basically dead to a flopped straight, and that will suck. But there will also be times, where he is jamming a worse draw than yours like KJ or A5 of clubs etc, so that you are even ahead. So while not a great spot your hand is to strong to let go.

Results
So this time he had you in pretty bad shape with a flopped two pair, meaning your overcard outs were no good. And this is bacially, why you should push preflop. If you push, then T8o most likely goes away, and this is a great result for you, because then you win the hand.

 

[300HPGOD]

With this stack size of 16 and multiple limpers in front of you, your only options in my opinion with any hand is fold, call (or in this case check) or jam it all in. You want to avoid making a relatively small raise with the stack size you have here since if you get called the SPR will be usually low enough where you are close to being committed or will be committed with one street of betting. I think this is a relatively easy jam here pre. Unlikely that anyone has anything that strong. The strongest you will usually see in this spot calling that didnt raise pre would be 66-88 which you are flipping with and that is not terrible plus some will fold those pairs if you jam so your equity plus the fold equity more than makes it a good play.

Raising the way you did invites others in because of pot odds and then if your hand misses the flop you are stuck since you would think most of the calling range is pairs that would limp call (108 called here since they were getting a great price but would have folded if you jammed). With less than 20 BBs and limpers in front look to jam more with your AJ, A10 and KQ suited type hands since you will have good fold equity and some hand equity as well against limpers.

 

[Axmanace]

Preflop
With just 17BB and 3 limpers in the pot you should have moved all in preflop. When you only go to 3BB, you are letting 3 other players into the pot, two of whom have position on you. This is a pretty big conceptual mistake, which you need to correct. Using one of the rules of thumb from the CC 30 day course, whenever the pot size is more than 20% of your stack, you should either fold or move all in preflop. Here the pot was 2.050 chips, and you only had 6.847, so this was WAY into push or fold territory because of all the limpers.

Postflop
Since postflop should never have happened, it almost does not matter, but given the pot odds I would also have called off with an OESD and two overcards. Sure there will be times, where you are drawing basically dead to a flopped straight, and that will suck. But there will also be times, where he is jamming a worse draw than yours like KJ or A5 of clubs etc, so that you are even ahead. So while not a great spot your hand is to strong to let go.

Results
So this time he had you in pretty bad shape with a flopped two pair, meaning your overcard outs were no good. And this is bacially, why you should push preflop. If you push, then T8o most likely goes away, and this is a great result for you, because then you win the hand.

Thank you. That course you mentioned... is it in the sidebar?


That’s a good logic to know. I’m somewhat new to poker - read a bunch of books (Harrington, theory of poker, etc). Don’t recall the 20% rule but that is good to know and will solve a lot .

 

[fundiver199]

Thank you. That course you mentioned... is it in the sidebar?

Its in the poker strategy section of CC homepage. If you are relatively new to poker, then this is just the right course for you

 

[Axmanace]

Its in the poker strategy section of CC homepage. If you are relatively new to poker, then this is just the right course for you

Question - is the 20% rule universal?
Tried doing the same thing in a different tourney with AQ (super loose table) in late position (4 limpets for 1.5k each, I had 28k - pot was 8k at that point it came to me) - unfortunately the person to my left had pocket kings (button)

 

[fundiver199]

Like all rules of thumb in poker its an approximation. Its a tool, which is easy to use in real time, where you cant pull out a solver to find the exact GTO line for each and every situation. Sometimes you can move in for more than 5 times the pot, and maybe once in a while there is a spot, where some sort of "trap" will work better. So the goal of a rule like this is not to make you play perfect, but to get you at least somewhat close. As for why its 5 times and not 4 or 6, I actually dont know. If Collin Moshman reads this, then maybe he can jump in with an explanation. I heard about it in his course and have since used it to kind of check the decisions, I was already making

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, I agree in the large part with guys. On this stack and even over 20-25bb you can play push pre flop. I think that it is the best decision. Sometimes opponent opponent from MP position can limp pocket AA, but I think most of the time push pre flop will be profitable move. Besides allin pre flop is better, because we play OOP. If we play OOP every raise pre flop should be bigger, but in this situation is a lot of dead money and most of the time we should win this chips pre flop. GL

 

[greatgame230]

AJ is a difficult hand that is why I want to write you about a hand in the free on Saturday that I played badly and it cost me the tournament, I am D, all fold, only the blinds remain, we were there, ITM and I decided to raise x3 with AJ SB makes a 3 bet and shove at that moment I mistakenly thought that my hand was strong and that it was the possibility of being in the first places of the tournament I call the villain shows 66 and wins the hand all the action happened in the Preflop I I should have folded but I repeat AJ is a hand that gives you the impression of being a strong hand when it really is not, in you case I would have check/ fold after the flop for the straight you only had 8 outs and it is not usually a good decision to look for it in those conditions I imagine you also thought that an A partially solved your hand, but the flop in a hand where there were many players involved the possibility of finding two pairs is very high so you should have folded that hand

 

[takinitSLEAZEE]

Playing AJ is for the strong stacks. I personally can't stand this hand. I usually get beat by it or holding it. Most of the time I fold AJ, especially if it's off-suit. It's more of a BB special hand. Playing it in the cut-off or button is usually the best way to even try and play this deceptive card duo. Shoving in that particular spot w/AJ is probably the best play you could've made without remorse.