$1 NLHE MTT: To Bluff or not to Bluff?

BlackThunder

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It's near the beginning of a $1 MTT. It's 5 handed at the table and the blinds are 20/40 and I have a stack of 1680 (42 BB).

- I raise UTG +1 with :6d4::4d4: to 80 (2 BB).

- It folds to the button and they call. The the SB folds and the BB calls.

- The flop comes :qs4::jc4::4c4: The BB checks, I check, and the button leads out 40 (1 BB) into a 260 (6.5 BB) pot. The BB folds and I raise it up to 160 (4 BB) and the button calls.

- The turn brings a :10s4: making :qs4::jc4::4c4::10s4: I bet out 370 (9.25 BB) into a 580 (14.5 BB) pot and the button calls.

- The river is a :5s4: which makes :qs4::jc4::4c4::10s4::5s4: I shove all in with 1070 (26.75 BB) into a 1320 (33 BB) pot and the button calls.

The button reveals :qh4::10c4: and I muck my hand.

I have a few questions about this hand and poker theory in general. Is it + EV to pull a bluff such as this when I perceive my opponent to be weak. Because I think the pressure I put on my opponent with this play is quite strong as I may represent a straight or possibly a backdoor flush or even a set. Also is it ok to pull off a bluff such as this and put my tournament life on the line when stacks are so deep? I'm looking for guidance and some help to point me in the right direction when it comes to these spots and bluffing in general.

Thank you for the advice!
 
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Ryan Laplante

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It's near the beginning of a $1 MTT. It's 5 handed at the table and the blinds are 20/40 and I have a stack of 1680 (42 BB).

- I raise UTG +1 with :6d4::4d4: to 80 (2 BB).

- It folds to the button and they call. The the SB folds and the BB calls.

- The flop comes :qs4::jc4::4c4: The BB checks, I check, and the button leads out 40 (1 BB) into a 260 (6.5 BB) pot. The BB folds and I raise it up to 160 (4 BB) and the button calls.

- The turn brings a :10s4: making :qs4::jc4::4c4::10s4: I bet out 370 (9.25 BB) into a 580 (14.5 BB) pot and the button calls.

- The river is a :5s4: which makes :qs4::jc4::4c4::10s4::5s4: I shove all in with 1070 (26.75 BB) into a 1320 (33 BB) pot and the button calls.

The button reveals :qh4::10c4: and I muck my hand.

I have a few questions about this hand and poker theory in general. Is it + EV to pull a bluff such as this when I perceive my opponent to be weak. Because I think the pressure I put on my opponent with this play is quite strong as I may represent a straight or possibly a backdoor flush or even a set. Also is it ok to pull off a bluff such as this and put my tournament life on the line when stacks are so deep? I'm looking for guidance and some help to point me in the right direction when it comes to these spots and bluffing in general.

Thank you for the advice!
Pre: Always relay your position as to where you are from the button. I.e: Here you are in the cutoff.

This matters as what is utg/utg1 says little about who is behind you. While Btn/Co/HJ/Mp2/MP1 are very clear.

I dont mind this bluff really. You had a read on opponent due to flop sizing that they were weak, and you had a hand with equity that didnt block their weakest hands.

That being said: Most of micro stakes crushing is more about letting people punt to you, or call down with weak stuff, and running lots of LP loose opens and small flop cbets than anything else.

If you want to work on your game for free i suggest watching streamers like: IrEgption, DramaticDegen, Lappy, KevinMartin, Lex.
 
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cgcook38

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I'm having trouble determining what I would think the opponent would have to call a check raise from the flop and be afraid by the river. Retrospectively, a Q9 could have been one example, as that was clearly in the villain's range. However, an opponent that loose, in these stakes, isn't going to lay down on the river much.
 
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xbursonicx

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I think the pressure I put on my opponent with this play is quite strong as I may represent a straight or possibly a backdoor flush or even a set.

I'm not sure that you can rely on that logic in micros too much. I've been playing freerolls only but from having played several micros using tickets won from PS I can say they aren't that different. And in these tourneys many of the players unwilling to give up their top pair (pocket or made) unless the board is obviously wet - for example there is a 4-card flush/straight draw. And if they hit anything better than top pair they'll surely want to see the showdown (which effectively makes them calling stations if you are betting aggressively).
 
akmost

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I posted kinda the same question some days ago , if it's +EV to raise shove my opponents double barrel for my tournament life.Feel free to see it if you like.

The only bad think here for my current knowledge is that you have zero equity and you block nothing.Even in high stakes on that board hero should have something like 99 in order to block some combinations.

I told 99 or generally 9x or Kx because those are some of the hands you could follow that line or even some clubs draw. The truth is what Protential stated ''let people punt to you''.
 
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Edson

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Pre: Always relay your position as to where you are from the button. I.e: Here you are in the cutoff.

This matters as what is utg/utg1 says little about who is behind you. While Btn/Co/HJ/Mp2/MP1 are very clear.

I dont mind this bluff really. You had a read on opponent due to flop sizing that they were weak, and you had a hand with equity that didnt block their weakest hands.

That being said: Most of micro stakes crushing is more about letting people punt to you, or call down with weak stuff, and running lots of LP loose opens and small flop cbets than anything else.

If you want to work on your game for free i suggest watching streamers like: IrEgption, DramaticDegen, Lappy, KevinMartin, Lex.

Sorry mate but in my opinion this hand can not be play worse than You do it...
First of all it's microstakes. Early stage! If You want to play 64s from early position You need to be great player and You need opponents who know what they doing. Players on early stages of misco MTT usually do not know what they are actually doing so even if You are so great as Tom Dwan you should play this phase very tight.
If You open this preflop, You should play c-bet, than control the pot and give up when opponent puts up resistance. This is micro... a lot of players will call you with 74 here :v
 
Spaceman

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My opinion is that the key points here is that its micro stakes and its early in the tournament. Your bluff risks a lot to gain little, cause there are no antes yet. When you checkraise on the flop what you want to say you have with your bluff? And then when you get called what do you think your opponent have?

I am a fish, so I will tell you why that bluff was bad and I was gonna call it with two pairs anyway.
When you bluff you should tell a story.

You said about backdoor flush. I would think what kind of backdoor flush check raises on that flop?

You said about straight thats its probable giving you raised utg. But what AK hand utg only minbets 2blinds and would an AK really check raise on the flop, and if you got there on the turn wouldnt u protect it when the board is now flushy?

So then I have to worry about a set, JJ or 44 since you checkraised on the flop and I am blocking Q. What kind of set shoves on a straight and flush board?

Also, with that kind of board, for me shoves in early stages means two things, somehow you got there or air. I would expect if you truly had something good to not shove and lose value on the river or called by better on that wet board.

Giving that on the turn now I have two pairs, that bluff is always called by fishes like me, especially in early stages that I know people shoving with Ace high or middle pair.

When your turn bet gets called I think it should send you a message, you are clearly behind and he certainly want to see a showdown. Again I am no expert with +EV but if your opponent is going to call your shove and you are clearly behind thats always -EV in my book. Especially if I know my opponent is weak, but he called my checkraise and turn bet.
 
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Matt Vaughan

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I feel pretty strongly that this is well outside of what we should be bluffing with. Even given the flop bet sizing of our opponent, I just feel we have so many better hands to bluff with here.

Even many of the weak hands our opponent can hold that are draws may not go away on the flop, and we make a hand choice that's going to force us into very difficult decisions on later streets (and I think we will go to later streets quite often).

I vastly prefer picking hands that at least have relevant blockers to draws and kickers of hands that connect with the board. (So I'd rather have a T in my hand since QT and JT are possible, and I'd rather hold a club or a spade since that blocks some of the combinations our opponent might continue with.) It's worth pointing out that if we choose 64dd here to bluff with, we should ALSO be picking many of the better hands equity wise that we might not cbet to do this with too. So stuff like backdoors with A high maybe, and a lot of the weaker draws (but ones that still often perform better and can be barreled more easily than this). Which means we have ALL those combos too. I just think we're going to be bluffing way too much if that's the case so I just toss this hand.

By the way ^ that was all before I even got to the turn and river so I didn't know the outcome lol. It's funny he actually had QT.

I also agree with Protential that in general our edge in these small BI fields is going to come from catching punts from our opponents, rather than running sophisticated and thin bluff lines. Patience takes you SUPER far in these things a lot of times, and yeah you won't always run well enough to go deep or take one down, but I think looking a little too hard for bluff spots can be dangerous and lead to us being the ones doing the punting. (Believe me, been there DONE THAT. :) )
 
BlackThunder

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My opinion is that the key points here is that its micro stakes and its early in the tournament. Your bluff risks a lot to gain little, cause there are no antes yet. When you checkraise on the flop what you want to say you have with your bluff? And then when you get called what do you think your opponent have?

I am a fish, so I will tell you why that bluff was bad and I was gonna call it with two pairs anyway.
When you bluff you should tell a story.

You said about backdoor flush. I would think what kind of backdoor flush check raises on that flop?

You said about straight thats its probable giving you raised utg. But what AK hand utg only minbets 2blinds and would an AK really check raise on the flop, and if you got there on the turn wouldnt u protect it when the board is now flushy?

So then I have to worry about a set, JJ or 44 since you checkraised on the flop and I am blocking Q. What kind of set shoves on a straight and flush board?

Also, with that kind of board, for me shoves in early stages means two things, somehow you got there or air. I would expect if you truly had something good to not shove and lose value on the river or called by better on that wet board.

Giving that on the turn now I have two pairs, that bluff is always called by fishes like me, especially in early stages that I know people shoving with Ace high or middle pair.

When your turn bet gets called I think it should send you a message, you are clearly behind and he certainly want to see a showdown. Again I am no expert with +EV but if your opponent is going to call your shove and you are clearly behind thats always -EV in my book. Especially if I know my opponent is weak, but he called my checkraise and turn bet.


Thank you for your input. What you said makes a lot of sense and it helps a lot. My play in this hand was pretty bad and your post helped me learn form my mistakes. Thank you :).
 
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russiankilla

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sdljfsd

i dont think you should continue to bluff on this board after being called on the flop
 
lsbenn

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I agree with a lot of the other post. I think you had bluff on your mind before the flop. Then you hit bottom pair and they gave more reason to push your opponent harder. It also looks as if you never thought of what the other player may hold.
 
kraemer

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It's early in the tournament and you still have a decent stack....

So why raise 64 from UTG+1 ????

I think -EV already kicked in when you didnt fold preflop...


I think the pressure I put on my opponent with this play is quite strong as I may represent a straight or possibly a backdoor flush or even a set.

I dont think so as your preflop and flop bets dont really fit the kind of hand you would need to make these hands.... The only thing i would have been afraid of in your case is a set 444....
 
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Check raising the flop doesn't make much sense here. Much harder to represent strength once you've shown weakness. I'd call the flop and the turn I'd consider a bad card and check/fold.

As played on flop I'd check/fold the bad turn. As played on turn I'd probably shut down because your value hands on the turn don't generally like that river, so jamming doesn't make a lot of sense.

The problem here is that your opponent made two pair and isn't folding. You should have considered the turn a very bad card because it is highly likely to give your opponent two pair or an open-ended straight draw. Consider ranges when deciding whether or not to bluff.
 
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Darth_Moola

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Bluffing weak opponents is a nightmare. With a QJT on the board they are bound to hit something better than 64s and, given that they called, may have 2 pair, since QJ and JT and calling hands for a lot of people. Bluffing weak players off of top pair or two pair is basically impossible.
 
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elias444

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It's early in the tournament, why risk so much on a bluff; especially on a wet board such as this one. And to make things worst you get two callers, you also need to ask your self can your opponent throw his top pair away or even 2 pairs. Don't need to bluff always and especially Don't need to bluff weak opponents..
Be patience and wait for the right moments to bluff. Also position is very important.
Good Luck next time..!
 
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I dare to note that the strength of the 64s hand is not enough for open raising from position UTG-1. Entering a game with hands similar to yours, it is logical to count on a straight or a flush. True, if you have three suited cards on the board, you can hardly draw a lot of chips from your opponents, but in the case of a higher flush, you can lose everything. After the flop again an error. You continue the aggression with the younger couple 44, feeling the opponent's weakness. Did you really count on the fact that a pair of 22 or 33 is playing against you, or is it an empty hand? Did you hear anything about check-raise tactics? The villain demonstrates that he has something, and at this time you are trying to portray a straight or a backdoor flash. Think for a minute: which two cards did you expect to see with your opponent? The board involves the development of a large number of hands, and you bluff from scratch. I think the villain also made a mistake by calling your raise with a pair of queens and a weak kicker (10). Today he was led. So often happens in tournaments with low limits, especially in the initial stage where there are many maniacs capable of going to the end with the most insignificant hand. They do not live for a long time, do not take an example from them, and be more careful when choosing the hands with which you play the game.

:captain:
 
dragunovich

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i love the Bluff so i think thatif u dont Bluff more osten u can't win anything
 
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The hand you are representing is either big clubs or a set on the flop, that's where I'd probably put you with a check raise. Clubs didn't get there, and the board kept getting worse and worse for the set if that was your hand. Straight got there on the turn and flush on the river. A set might be inclined to check/call the river considering the runout and action on previous streets. Also obviously Qx is often going to be Q 10 or QJ making 2 pair, a hand guys aren't often going to lay down. It was probably unfortunate that the guy made 2 pair on the turn...otherwise your play might have worked. At the same time, at these stakes I'm not sure KQ lays down in that spot. You may have seen more caution at higher stakes. Your check raise was a good play and a very strong move. As soon as villain called there, I think I'm shutting down.
 
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I think the bluff here was a mistake. You have already played the hand strongly throughout the hand and were called all the way through.

You raised preflop and were called. Then you check raised and were called once again. Based on this I would expect your opponent has at least a pair of queens, jacks or a straight/flush draw.

You then bet out on the turn which was a 10 and were called. You have now been called on 2 streets and your opponent seems willing to play out this hand. Straight draws have now connected, flush still possible, as are sets, 2 pair or pairs with strong kicker with a straight draw.

Finally the last spade comes. Your opponent has demonstrated a willingness to play out this hand. The small bet on the flop would lead me to believe more that they are weak player than just having a weak hand. In micro stakes, players are afraid to lead and make bets that are too small, but are much more comfortable calling hands down. If they had a weak hand, I would expect they would have folded to the check raise or the turn bet. They didn't. Finally, I would like to know how many chips they had left in their stack when you made the bluff. If they were even with you, they are getting 2-1 to call. If they are short stacked, they are getting better and better pot odds the less they have left.
 
Cesar gonzalez

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musica2017

Playing a hand like 64 UTG will always give you a bad time despite everything like there is little chance of winning a bigger vote is very risky many times
 
SuzdalDEcor

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Congratulation! Raise on the flop to nowhere xD. This turn is a very bad for your range, so turn you must play check-fold. River even worse for you - this push to nowhere.
 
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